Temperature Controlling Fermentation for Larger Volumes

[paulpj26]

I'm considering upgrading to stainless so I can brew larger volumes, however, my brew fridge can only handle my 19l carboy. So I'm wondering how people who brew say 50l/100l control their fermentation?


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[mattyhall22]

Use insulation boarding or plywood and insulation to make a cupboard with a STC-1000 for a heater. Not sure how could aid cooling unless had a coil with coldwater pumping through it again controlled by the STC-1000 perhaps with a solar pump?

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[Vossy1]

As per Matty's advice, a larger fridge or make your own cupboard. This is my old one which now houses my grain mill.
Build a cupboard to take a fv, in this case a 60ltr, and lag it with kingspan or some other insulating material. Heating in this case is by a tubular heater, cooling is by using a maxi chiller's python loop to pump cold water through a heat exchanger in the fv, in this case a rab maxwell design (search it). Later on I used chilling coils in the fv, see below. All this is controlled by a ATC800 at the time, now I use STC1000's.




New design, above takes 3 conicals all on the same principal as above

 

[london_lhr]

Here is another way, similar to Vossy1 but utilising your current, too small, fridge.

http://www.nchomebrewing.com/diy-mini-f ... ber-build/

Barry.

 

[paulpj26]

Brilliant guys! Thanks for the advice :thumb: Think i'll be upgrading!!

Vossy - What's the extractor fan for?

cheers! :

 

[Fil]

the shelf chiller will heat up that small area warm enough to bake if u dont pull out the hot air

 

[Vossy1]

Yup, that's the one, thanks Fil :thumb:

 

[darkonnis]

Vossy, what have you done to control each individual fermenter? or did you not bother in the end?

 

[Fil]

ONCE!! I shut the door on my 'beer cellar' with the shelf chiller running. after an hour the circa 2.5m cubed volume in there was HOT!!!


- ive been thinking about multi vessel temp control based on a shelf chiller+inline heating pipe effecting change in both directions.. and think the easiest and probably the best solution is to dedicate a single chiller/pipe controller to each fermention vessel. otherwise the risk of cycling the chiller between inputs based on sampling different vessels is too great as lots of energy will be expended on normalising the transfer medium (waterbath contents) And in every case some sort of logic controller to multiplex samples and effect input switching is needed. all to effect a less effective system with more risks of error.

with individual chillers simple controllers such as stc1000's can be used and a fault with one system will have no impact on other fermentations.


Also if considering a chiller and hex solution i would mount the chiller above the FV as when the pump stops you could drain vital cooling fluid from the hex coil out the overflow.

 

[Vossy1]

Vossy, what have you done to control each individual fermenter? or did you not bother in the end?

Each chamber is controlled by a dedicated STC1000, and each has it's own tubular heater and coolant supply and return.
At present I'm using the python line from my maxi cooler to supply the larger cupboard which had a 110ltr conical in it.
The reason for using the python line for the 110ltr is that it is the coldest supply taken directly from the Maxi coolant bath.
The other 2 chambers are supplied by a remote coolant reservoir which has 2 pond pumps in it. The coolant is pumped from the reservoir through individual beer line coils of the maxi, then to the conical, and back to the reservoir.
I've only used the system once and it had a problem, well not much of one but if you're a perfectionist like me
The remote reservoir would track the maxi bath but around 3 degrees higher IIRC, the maxi being at near 0. With both remote chambers in use the reservoir would track around 7-8deg, so still more than low enough, but typically for me, not good enough.
I've decided to change the design and use Reich Twin water pumps IN the maxi bath... it's just a case of modifying the maxi to take them. One thing I did find is that pond pumps aren't great for this application, fine but not great, they don't have the power to cope.

otherwise the risk of cycling the chiller between inputs based on sampling different vessels is too great as lots of energy will be expended on normalising the transfer medium (waterbath contents)

I thought about automated valves, looked into it, it is doable, but I didn't like the idea, a bit too complicated for me, it was far easier to use dedicated pumps. I wouldn't worry too much about the water bath medium, the chances of all pumps being on at the same time is remote and if you keep in mind the water baths are designed to be on permanently, chilling fonts on a bar, your fv is probably going to be less demanding :lol:

 

[rpt]

Here is another way, similar to Vossy1 but utilising your current, too small, fridge.

http://www.nchomebrewing.com/diy-mini-f ... ber-build/

Barry.

What a great idea - just make your existing fridge bigger. Obvious when you think about it. I assume what the Americans call a mini fridge we call a fridge as it's not a huge thing with two doors.

If I got an old full height fridge I assume I could get a large tall fermenter that would fit in there

 

[Dack]

Just to see I'm following this correctly;

The STC reads the FV temp; when the temp goes too high, the cold side output of the STC ticks on, starting the pump and the Maxi, recirc'ing coolant through the heat exchanger until the temp is low enough, then stops? Or is the pump running constantly, and the cool side only controls the Maxi? I'm just trying to figure out how to wire a pump and a Maxi simultaneously into an STC.

 

[graysalchemy]

Just to see I'm following this correctly;

The STC reads the FV temp; when the temp goes too high, the cold side output of the STC ticks on, starting the pump and the Maxi, recirc'ing coolant through the heat exchanger until the temp is low enough, then stops? Or is the pump running constantly, and the cool side only controls the Maxi? I'm just trying to figure out how to wire a pump and a Maxi simultaneously into an STC.

My maxi switches on when it needs cooling, however some people only control the pump in the maxi thus the maxi is always cool ready for instant cooling. I haven't figured out how to seperate the pump from the rest of the maxi's wiring (wiring just looks looks a birds nest to me no mater how simple), but it seems to work for me.

:thumb:

 

[Vossy1]

Hi Dack, that's about it,

You set the low limit and tolerance, so say 18deg +/-0.5, and at 18.6 deg c the STC output switches on.
Same for the high side.

What the outputs control is up to you. If you only have one fv it's easier to wire the python pump in the maxi up to the chiller side, so it pumps the water round the circuit. If you have more fv's you have to start thinking about how to get coolant to the other fv's.

You also have t keep in mind that the STC has a limit of switching 10amps IIRC so if you're switching a big fridge it may be of concern.

Note, wiring the python pump to the STC1000 means the maxi ice bath will be independent of the pump, as G says you can do it so the STC controls the entire maxi...it will work but isn't as efficient at cooling as there may be no or limited ice bath.

 

[graysalchemy]

Taking it a step further Uncle Pumble at the Cheshire Brew House has a maxi chill on constantly which pumps cold water round a circuit then individual stc's control solenoid valves to allow cold water through the coil as and when each Fv is needed. Mind you that is a 5BBl set up :whistle: :whistle:

 

[Vossy1]

It's a nice cheap solution for dedicated micro chilling. I couldn't justify it due to cost, or the fact recircing all day is a waste for fv's that only use it for a few mins each correction, maybe only a few times a day.

 

[Dack]

What the outputs control is up to you. If you only have one fv it's easier to wire the python pump in the maxi up to the chiller side, so it pumps the water round the circuit. If you have more fv's you have to start thinking about how to get coolant to the other fv's.

Still a bit confused here; I thought a Maxi chiller was a simple on-off operation, that needs a liquid to be pumped/pushed through it. How can a pump inside the maxi ice bath pump water/ coolant around a loop?

 

[Vossy1]

The water is the coolant, hold on I'll find some pics

 

[Vossy1]

This is the inside of a 2 line beer cooler which has a python pump in addition. If you look carefully at the pics you'll see an ice 'collar' has formed around the coolant coils but the centre of the ice bath and beer lines are in water. The python motor (top right under white disc) sits inside the water and pumps the water through the large orange hose to a port on the side of the Maxi, the python 'out' port.
In a untouched maxi when you turn it on the ice bath forms and the chilling side of the maxi will cut out automatically once the ice collar has formed, but the python motor remains on permanently. When the ice collar reaches a certain temp (warms) the chilling side cuts back in to maintain the ice bath.
You can re wire the motor to be controlled by the STC1000, therefore it only comes on when it's needed. This means the maxi uses less energy as it's not trying to maintain the ice collar under constant use.

There is an outlet for the python pump on the maxi to which you attach tubing - then attach the other end of the tubing to the coil in your fv - then attach tubing to the outlet on your coil and the other end of this tubing goes back to the return 'in' port on the Maxi, making a closed loop.
Hope that makes sense

 

[Dack]

Ahhhh, gotcha now. Cheers!