Stuck brew not sure on next move?

[ericmark]

Geordie Lager kit (not real just lager taste) started 28th November 2014 and bottled 14th December 2014 and put straight into shed no conditioning at room temperature.

10th March 2015 tasted Lager very sweet and very high pressure in bottle as bottle was left in room temperature the pressure kept returning so decided bottling in December must have made a mistake and bottled too early.

18th of March 2015 poured all bottles back into a fermentor really huge amount of gas released and the s.g. still at 10ºC was 1.012 approx. By 20th warmed up so re-tested s.g. 1.020 at 22ºC. Air lock activity about two bubbles a minute.

25th March s.g. not fallen so added extra dried yeast the activity increased to nine bubbles per minute but 24 hours latter dropped again. This morning re-tested s.g. 1.020 at 20ºC.

So now I have to decide what to do? Should I give it still more time, get a new yeast and allow it to re-hydrate first then add to brew, bottle it as is, or bottle it with normal half tea spoon of sugar?

I am leaning towards bottling as it is with out added sugar and marking for drinking quickly in case there is some bug in it. But would like any input and thoughts. Air lock activity now nearly zero.

I will guess the 1.010 to 1.020 is due to temperature when measured. Using glass hydrometer calibrated for 60 degs F with marking etched into side so no possibility of paper slipping in hydrometer and reading for Bitter being brewed in temperature controlled fridge are as expected.

 

[Sandimas]

I managed to get a stuck brew going again last week by getting it nice and warm (22C) and adding 150g of sugar mixed into a syrup with a little hot water. And given that the only yeast left is that in suspension in the lager, I'd pitch another yeast to give it a good chance.

 

[chrisgg]

I sympathise with your problems and you are tackling them with great resourcefulness.
My advice in future is to first take the starting SG. Then allow fermentation to proceed at room temperature with an airlock on the bin until the bubbles have virtually stopped. This might be after two weeks but it doesn't matter if it's one week or you even leave it a month, as long as it is airtight. I leave it until convenient for me. Then take the finishing SG. Then transfer by syphon to a 5 gallon keg where you can allow the beer to rest before bottling for a couple of weeks. This will help clear the beer. Check the SG again. Then syphon from there to the bottles and do the priming. Did you measure the starting SG so you can work out the likely alcoholic strength of the beer? There is a formula online so that you can feed in the starting and finishing SG to give the likely strength, use the calculators tab at the top of the page.

Do not rely on the % alcohol scale on the hydrometer...it is very inaccurate and assumes all sugar has been fermented which is never the case.
My finishing SG is usually around 1.008 so your figure of 1.020 seems very high. I wonder if there were unfermentable sugars like maltodextrins in the kit? There is obviously something very wrong with the brew. Why not try bottling and priming one bottle and see what happens...how it behaves and tastes after a couple of weeks. Meanwhile, keep an eye on the airlock of the remainder and check for any activity at room temperature...I wouldn't add any more sugar..there appears to be enough in the beer already....maybe a little more yeast. Also add some yeast nutrient as kits are short of nutrients.

 

[Brewtus]

Ok, let's go though this step by step.

Geordie Lager kit (not real just lager taste) started 28th November 2014 and bottled 14th December 2014 and put straight into shed no conditioning at room temperature.

Did you measure the OG at this point? that is the only surefire way to confirm fermentation has ceased. Also you need some conditioning time in the warm for the remaining yeast to convert your priming sugar to CO2 and fizz your beer up!

10th March 2015 tasted Lager very sweet and very high pressure in bottle as bottle was left in room temperature the pressure kept returning so decided bottling in December must have made a mistake and bottled too early.

This would indicate that priming sugar is still present and has not been eaten, as they come inside the yeast starts to wake up again and do its thing.

18th of March 2015 poured all bottles back into a fermentor really huge amount of gas released and the s.g. still at 10ºC was 1.012 approx. By 20th warmed up so re-tested s.g. 1.020 at 22ºC. Air lock activity about two bubbles a minute.

This could be your biggest mistake, pouring back into the fermenter will have, no doubt, oxygenated the beer and it will now be more prone to spoiling. Also an hydrometer calibrated at 15C should only be a point out at 10 or 20C so there might be something else up here - did you add anymore sugar?

25th March s.g. not fallen so added extra dried yeast the activity increased to nine bubbles per minute but 24 hours latter dropped again. This morning re-tested s.g. 1.020 at 20ºC.

Putting it somewhere warm a this point may help...

So now I have to decide what to do? Should I give it still more time, get a new yeast and allow it to re-hydrate first then add to brew, bottle it as is, or bottle it with normal half tea spoon of sugar?

I am leaning towards bottling as it is with out added sugar and marking for drinking quickly in case there is some bug in it. But would like any input and thoughts. Air lock activity now nearly zero.

If you do not think the additional yeast has worked yet, whatever you do, do not bottle it, that will be bottle bombs waiting to happen! Also as and when you do get around to bottling you will need to add priming sugar or you will not have any fizz and no one likes flat lager!

I will guess the 1.010 to 1.020 is due to temperature when measured. Using glass hydrometer calibrated for 60 degs F with marking etched into side so no possibility of paper slipping in hydrometer and reading for Bitter being brewed in temperature controlled fridge are as expected.

Don't know, stumped here, I have known bubbles on the outside of the hydrometer to hold it 5 points high, but 10 points would seem unlikely!

 

[ericmark]

Thank you all for replies. Start s.g. was 1.048 but I had got lazy brew after brew had taken 2 weeks and I had got to the point of expecting air lock to have stopped by two weeks and it was only a case of having the time to bottle. At a very controlled temperature the problems of early days had vanished it was so predicable. So I checked the air lock which is very well sealed using electrical stuffing gland no bubbles so bottled.

Yes I knew I should condition but thought it would be months before I was ready to drink so not really a problem going straight into shed and the Scottish Heavy and Bitters have been fine lucky the Lager is the odd one out.

Bottles most are plastic with one swing top so plastic I can test and swing top will self release any excess pressure. Just think Lager does not like me. Done three now and only one went as planned. So I have re-bottled and left in kitchen warmth no added sugar and on test the bottles are turgid so is pressurising the whole lot will be drunk first before the rest of stock so it should not be a problem with over pressure. I hope.

 

[ericmark]

Now no longer worried about what to do all I want is to work out how to avoid the same in the future. OK wrists slapped should have checked the s.g. before bottling but brew before and after both were OK so what when wrong?

To recap this is what happened.

Kit Geordie Lager, Started 28 November, s.g. 1.048, at start temperature too high so delayed adding yeast until temperature dropped to 22.7ºC with sensor under sponge and 18ºC on stick on temperature strip. Controller set to 18ºC (17.5 ~ 18ºC) next day controller still showing 19.7ºC so no heat added for 24 hours, slowly increased temperature 0.5ºC every day so by time transferred on 5 Dec 2014 sitting at 24 ºC. It was bottled 14 Dec 2014 (16 days in fermentor), and taken directly to shed outside temperature between -0.2 ~ 11ºC left untouched until. Around the 10th March I was ready to start on the Lager. Opened bottle to find high pressure and could only pour half a glass as so much foam. Fridge (temperature controlled) was in use, and no room in kitchen, so it was the 18th of March before the Lager was returned to fermentor.
There was so much gas had to wait for bubbles to subside with four bottles left to go in. Took s.g. reading of 1.010 at 10ºC placed near radiator, but took a full day to warm up re-tested on the 20th March s.g. 1.020 at 22ºC. Activity with air lock seemed zero so resealed the air lock, then got two bubbles per minute, as time went on this reduced to two minutes a bubble, but the sample tried was so sweet it clearly had not completed first time it was bottled.
On the 25th March 2015 the s.g. was still at 1.024 may be higher, in spite of air lock activity two bubble per minute, it seemed the same as when poured back into fermentor. Added extra yeast and within minutes the activity increased. Timed at 9 bubbles per minute, 5 fold the previous activity.
On the 27th March the Lager was returned to bottles as in spite of the warmth and extra yeast activity was very slow, however within 12 hours pressure was increasing in the bottles no sugar was added to bottles.
One part bottle drank not too bad a little too sweet and yeasty the latter would be as this bottle was poured into from fermentor after siphon lost on re bottling.

One 16 days should have been enough and two why did it not jump back into activity once returned to fermentor and warmed up? Other than the short burst when fresh yeast added which was short lived it behaved like a beer which had finished. After 10 days it should have clearly finished fermenting any fermentables left and the s.g. should have dropped to around 1.008 going by other brews with same instructions from same manufacturer.


One big question is why it never cleared all other brews have cleared what when wrong with this one. When I used a lager and bitter mix it worked very well start 1.058 and finish 1.008 OK 21 days but only to be expected with such a high start s.g. I would hope this one around 7% ABV.



I will admit I had developed a lazy fair attitude each brew had behaved as expected for a year and I was in auto mode. Pour in the can, add sugar, wait until temperature within limits add yeast carry out to garage put in old fridge with a old demo under floor heating tile, set temperature on temperature controller and forget. So what when wrong this time? Clearly want to avoid a repeat.

 

[chrisgg]

Just thought....the bubbles in the beer when you returned to the fermenting bin would give a high reading for SG. You would have to shake the sample tested to get rid of the bubbles before taking a reading on the hydrometer.

 

[ericmark]

I am aware of the bubble problem. When I first started my thoughts were why not have a hydrometer inside a pipette as done with battery acid as so easy to sample and read. I bought a cheap anti-freeze hydrometer with that in mind and very quickly realised the problem with bubbles. Being unable to spin the hydrometer one could not get rid of the bubbles. The waiting for bubbles to subside I think was the root problem being in a hurry I didn't wait and bottled too early.

Reading up about stuck fermentation I noted that dead yeast inhibits yeast activity so adding fresh yeast does not really work as the existing dead yeast stops it. Since I have had it so cold for so long likely could have killed the yeast which explains why re-heating did not re-activate the yeast.

So I feel likely whole reason was bottling too early. Had I done it in the summer bottles would have exploded but in winter fermentation stopped.

Had the fermentation re-started once warmed I would not have worried it was the fact it would not restart which upset me. Anyway I will keep in kitchen and monitor bottle pressure and drink before any other brew so if there is any bug it will not have too much chance to do anything. Also all bottles carefully sanitised just in case.

 

[chrisgg]

Thanks for the reply. Just an aside.....interesting what you say about dead yeast inhibiting yeast activity. I use a homemade sourdough culture to ferment all my beer and wine and for making bread. I save the yeast left on the bottom of the fermentation bin and add it back to the original sourdough culture and keep it in the fridge...it doesn't appear to inhibit the fermentation of the next brew, which is always very reliable. I'm not convinced the settled yeast is really dead..it has run out of sugar to ferment so will be sleeping or comatose. After long storage the yeasts will eventually break down. In the days when Guinness was sold bottle-conditioned in pints(up to the early 1980s), I used to use some the yeast in the bottom of the bottles to ferment the next batch of beer. It worked very well. This suggests that yeast settled on the bottom after fermentation is still alive, waiting for more fuel. That's my theory!

 

[ericmark]

I was also of the impression that the dead yeast was food for active yeast. But on reading this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuck_fermentation it seems that is not always the case. It states:- "Our goal now is to find yeast strains that essentially ignore the signal initiated by the bacteria and do not form the prion, but instead power on through the fermentation." so it appears not all yeasts are inhibited.

After having a yeast problem with Coopers Ginger Beer I started sharing yeast between to brews so building up a stock of dried yeast. However although I have a stock now I failed to add a date or record which kit they came from so I have a Beer tankard full of yeast packets but no idea how old or what they were originally for. So when I added that extra packet of yeast can't say how old or what type it was.

Last year I also played with Lager. I did two one following instructions and the other I bought a Young's Lager yeast and tried to brew it at Lager temperatures. The one with Lager yeast was a total flop. I had read John Palmer's thing about beer as converted F to C but clearly it was too cold. Seems only wet yeast can go down that low dry Lager yeast is not that much different to kit yeast. It clearly got a bug likely due to slow start and final s.g. was 1.002 far lower than it should have gone. I decided I would not try Lagering a beer again. I think the root problem is with proper lager everything is boiled then allowed to cool then yeast added but with a kit beer one adds tap water which likely has some bugs in it. If kit instructions are followed in two weeks the alcohol stops any bugs from living and the beer will easy keep for a year. But following lager method the bugs can thrive for too long before the alcohol kills them. At least that's what I think.

 

[Santino]

I have also had a similar problem - I have a Mexican Cerveza kit in the fermenter for 2 weeks now. I suspected the fermentation had finished early (after about 4-5 days), but this was the first brew I had put in the airing cupboard, so I assumed the extra heat had just made it go extra quick :hmm:

So, I sterilised all my bottles and caps yesterday afternoon and checked the SG - it was 1020 and it tasted sweet. I'm really not sure how this has happened, I also have a Ginger Beer fermenting in the cupboard and that's still going happily, so I don't think its lack of heat...

Anyway, I had used the last of my Safale 04 in the Ginger Beer, so I only had cider yeast. I put it in a sugar starter and got that going in the airing cupboard before pitching back into the beer. I've put it back in the cupboard, but I'd be keen to know if the likelihood is that its F'ed up? I don't know what the cider yeast will do to it?

It's a bit depressing really - and I spent all afternoon cleaning and sterilising the bloody bottles :geek:

 

[clibit]

An airing cupboard is likely to be too warm for beer fermentation. It'll ferment quickly, but will be likely to create flavours you don't want.

Also, yeast should be rehydrated in warm water alone, no sugar. That could be the cause of the high final gravity, possibly. Sugar can make the yeast less inclined to eat the malt sugars.

 

[Santino]

Ah, so I have made more errors :<

Originally, I just pitched the dried kit yeast into the Cerveza - the SG measurement was after the 2 week 'fermentation' period, but before I put the cider yeast in.

I have a thermometer on the bucket which never goes above 18deg. Do you think this is too high? Currently in the old 'fermentation room' (the other half didn't appreciate this - hence I now use the airing cupboard) the temps were more 12-15deg.

Is it worth continuing with this one? I'm keen to get my wheat beer on, so would ideally not like to waste another 2 weeks if it's likely to be undrinkable.

 

[chrisgg]

I've not had any problems with bugs and tap water when making beer and wine, as long as the fermenting bin is protected from the air and preferably airtight. I don't use any form of sanitiser when washing out my beer and wine swing-top bottles(kept closed and washed out thoroughly the next day after use), just half a dozen vigorous rinses in tap water and draining the bottles dry. In dirty bottles , i.e. ones that have been sitting around open to moulds and dirt or collected from other users I do sterilise with metabisulphite. The yeast is a great bug eater itself and the hops also prevent spoilage in beer. During fermentation, the lack of oxygen will prevent growth of bacteria as well as the effect of the active yeasts and the alcohol. I've had my sourdough culture in the ordinary fridge for one and a half years and add tap water and wholemeal flour to it from time to time to feed it. It has never grown any kind of mould or gone bad. There are friendly bacteria in sourdough cultures taken in from the atmosphere...they also help protect the wine and beer. So you see, I have great faith in tap water!

 

[ericmark]

I have faith in tap water been brewing now for 3 years but where I see a problem is for any reason the brew start is delayed for example too cold. Brewing in the kitchen temperature varied and once started it was very unlikely to get too cold for first 6 days due to heat from fermenting. But moving to garage the fridge was temperature controlled and I think 18.5 degrees in hind sight was too cold now start at 19.5 degrees if in a hurry will lift up to 22 degrees after first 6 days.

The major problem was low temperature which only varied 0.5 degrees with kitchen even if it was cold there would be times of the day when it did warm up. Fridge was 18 ~ 18.5 all the time.

 

[chrisgg]

I ferment my beer at room temperature in a corner of the kitchen. The temperature varies winter to summer. Recent brews have been around 16C, but a good vigorous fermentation has still been achieved, more or less complete in 10 days. Not being a commercial brand brewer, I don't like to control things too strictly. It's interesting to compare the brews under different prevailing conditions.

 

[duncans]

I have had a few batches with stuck fermentation recently. Its a but of a pisser and binned the batches. I got past it by hydrating the yeast in warm water first, regardless of the yeast packet instructions.

I see conflicting info on the forums. Some people say no problem adding dry but I will never pitch dry yeast again. Good luck.

 

[ericmark]

I noted when I moved into fridge how my stick on thermometer gave me an erroneous reading. I realised the problem is no insulation on the temperature strip with the sensor there is insulation over it so it takes a reasonably accurate reading of the brew. But with no insulation the fermentor wall had cooled so the strip was showing a low reading. It was only a few degrees out and unless brewing right on the edge not really a problem. However I now realise when the room warmed up as central heating cut in the brew lagged behind more than I thought and the same when central heating went off at night. Same problem placing near a radiator of course.

As to yeast I think there is a huge difference in brewing from scratch and using kits. And with kits putting dried yeast direct onto the brew removes the problem of shocking the yeast so likely best way for kits. Rehydrating first does give a faster start but only if rehydrated before it is required. With a brew from scratch where you need things to cool before adding rehydrating makes sense but with a kit the time between rehydrating and pitching is so short there is no real advantage. Seem to remember yeast will double in size in an hour so two hours cooling before adding means 4 times as much yeast added but with a kit with 15 minutes to add all ingredients just not worth it.