Starter for bottle harested yeast help

[jceg316]

Hey, I'm trying to harvest yeast from a bottle of beer but not sure if I'm doing it right. I've read so many different ways to do it - the size of starter, how many starters are needed etc - so was just wondering how mine was coming along. I'm brewing on thursday so would be good to have the lager yeast ready for then.

Last night I made ~1 litre of extract using 100g of medium DME. One site said this is far too much so I split it to make 2 starters. In the coke bottle are 2 bottles worth of saflager s-23 and in the kilner jar is 1 bottle of s-04.

The saflager seems to have multiplied already but no results yet from the s-04. I understand it's still a bit early though to see any results, but don't understand how the s-23 has multiplied and there to b no krausen.

I've attached photos. I would really like your opinions on whether this seems alright. Also, for a 5.2% 20 litre batch of pilsner, how much yeast do i need?

 

[MyQul]

When you say "harvested from a bottle of beer", do you mean you've harvested the yeast from your own bottles? or from a commercial bottle of beer?

 

[jceg316]

When you say "harvested from a bottle of beer", do you mean you've harvested the yeast from your own bottles? or from a commercial bottle of beer?

My own bottles. This is something quite new to me, and I know I can harvest from the fermentation vessel after fermentation has finished, however I would like to get lager yeast for a Warsteiner clone I'm attempting soon.

Thanks.

 

[CreweBrewer]

I didn't think you could harvest/grow dried yeast once it had been used..?

 

[MyQul]

I didn't think you could harvest/grow dried yeast once it had been used..?

Once you've used dried yeast it ues up its packed energy reserves to do it's thing but then it takes on more from the wort and "turns into" liquid yeast like you get from one of the yeast labs

Plenty of people harvest and resuse dried yeast from the bottom of there FV's

 

[CreweBrewer]

Ah I see. Learn something new...

 

[Spoon]

There is/was a good guide somewhere for how to do it properly beyond simply just repeatedly stepping it up until you have enough.

Two points I remember:
1) there were downsides to too little yeast in too much wort in starters, so thy start in test tubes, then small flasks, then bigger flasks. Not just pitching a couple of bottles worth into a liter. I think it was to do with energy reserves and at each step the yeast needs to finish fermenting before it can be re pitched into a bigger starter.

2) It took the sample from the bottle and grew it on an agar dish. Then a single cell colony onto a second dish, then a single cell colony onto a slant, then starters. That way you eliminate contamination, effectively get back to first generation yeast, and if it goes wrong you have an agar plate of good yeast to start from again. Downside it takes 2 weeks to build upto a brew, and if you store lots of yeasts you need to grow each culture every 3-6 months to keep it viable. After reading it I kinda understood why even big craft breweries with lots of different styles (Brewdog, Dogfishhead, etc) stick to just a few strains for their whole range rather than raid the Wyeast library for each new beer!

 

[MyQul]

For ales it's quite easy to culture up yeast from your own bottles as theres a much larger amount of yeast in a HB bottle than a commercial bottle conditioned ale

I did 4 step ups from (iirc the yeast harvested from a 330ml) but I'm sure you could get away with three, especially if your using a 500ml bottle harvest and pitching the final amount into a low OG wort

Have a look at my bottle culturing guided

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=53567

You'll notice there's six step up. You can miss the first two out. When I cultured up from my own bottles I did two 250nl 1.040 step ups followed by two 2L 1.040 step ups. You couple possibly get away with just one 250ml step up

As for amounts I just kind of guessed using my own guide (as a guide) as I know it works but if you want to be a bit more accurate; You need about 200 - 250billion cells for an ale of <1.060 (depending on OG). Once you've crashed the yeast down to the maximimum density, in the fridge of, whatever amount of slurry you have it will be about 1.5billion cells per ml.
So to measure how much you have, get an identical jar, bottle, whatever you have your yeast in and pour some water in to the exact same level as the yeast. Then measure how much water you have and times by 1.5 to give you how many billion yeast cells you have

You wont have enough yeast to brew on thurs btw as bottle culturing takes time unfortunately.

As for the Saflager; unless you REALLY want to do it this way I'd just buy more yeast because if your largering properly at 12C you need twice as much yeast as ales so will take a really long time to do. Personally I'd only bottle culture a lager strain if it was a particulaly special strrain I was after or I was just going to ferment it at ales temps

This post is a bit ramble-y so please ask for any clarifications on any of the above if it's not clear

 

[jceg316]

Hey Myqul, thanks so much for outlining that process. It's interesting that there are so many steps in your process. I've been doing a lot of reading around and a lot of others suggest only 2, or sometimes 1 is enough.

In an update on my yeasts, both of them have definitely multiplied and I've put the lager yeast in a larger started to use for Sunday. I couldn't brew Thursday anyway because my f*cking controller broke.

Another related question.I brewed a different lager a couple of weeks ago and I believe the beer oxidized - the FV was only half full - I've kept the yeast from the FV, could I use it or because the beer went bad do I have to chuck it?

 

[terrym]

Another related question.I brewed a different lager a couple of weeks ago and I believe the beer oxidized - the FV was only half full - I've kept the yeast from the FV, could I use it or because the beer went bad do I have to chuck it?

First the fact that your FV was only half full during fermentation actually works against the likelihood of oxidation since the layer of CO2 resting on the beer is that much deeper, and therefore decreases the chance of oxygen reaching the beer.
However there was quite a long thread recently about racking off to secondary and the implications for oxidising your beer. You might like to read it before you decide your beer has oxidised.
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61578
Have you given the beer chance to condition before you decide something went wrong?
Green beer can taste a bit odd sometimes but a couple of weeks or longer conditioning soon sorts that out.
Nonetheless if you have had a brew that has gone wrong I would not keep the yeast for another brew I would chuck it.

 

[MyQul]

Hey Myqul, thanks so much for outlining that process. It's interesting that there are so many steps in your process. I've been doing a lot of reading around and a lot of others suggest only 2, or sometimes 1 is enough.

In an update on my yeasts, both of them have definitely multiplied and I've put the lager yeast in a larger started to use for Sunday. I couldn't brew Thursday anyway because my f*cking controller broke.

Another related question.I brewed a different lager a couple of weeks ago and I believe the beer oxidized - the FV was only half full - I've kept the yeast from the FV, could I use it or because the beer went bad do I have to chuck it?

It's much better to step up your yeast to the correct pitching levels, as yes, you might be able to get it to work but your yeast wont be the healthiest or enough cells, and stressed yeast can give you off flavours

The yeast from the oxidised beer will probably be ok to reuse but I never re-use yeast if I have any doubts about it because I'd cry if after all the money time and effort I'd put in to a brew to fall at the last hurdle because I'd pitched some dodgy yeast. At the end of the day you can alway pitch a pack of cheap dry yeast that hasn't quite got the characteristics your were after

 

[jceg316]

First the fact that your FV was only half full during fermentation actually works against the likelihood of oxidation since the layer of CO2 resting on the beer is that much deeper, and therefore decreases the chance of oxygen reaching the beer.
However there was quite a long thread recently about racking off to secondary and the implications for oxidising your beer. You might like to read it before you decide your beer has oxidised.
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61578
Have you given the beer chance to condition before you decide something went wrong?
Green beer can taste a bit odd sometimes but a couple of weeks or longer conditioning soon sorts that out.
Nonetheless if you have had a brew that has gone wrong I would not keep the yeast for another brew I would chuck it.

Using a standard 5 gal glass demijohn, it was half full. I understand there is a layer of CO2 created but thought maybe there was too much space. My beer has a wet cardboard kind of taste. This could be due to hot side aeration as well though.

I didn't rack to secondary. I only do that if it's really necessary to reduce the risk of infection or oxidation.

Thinking out loud (then typing it down), I made a split batch and the second one has the same taste. They both started off smelling amazing in the first few days of fermenting. I could smell them by sniffing the air blown through the airlock, I didn't open them up. When the bubbling died down and I went to check their gravity, they smelt foul, both of them. It's unlikely they both went off, but they were both mashed and boiled together, and I got some air trapped in one part of my HERMS tubing.

MyQul - makes sense. There's a lot of information out there and it's interesting to see how it all ties together! Thanks again for the help on this.

 

[jceg316]

An update about my starters: I pitched the lager yeast last Sunday. I made far too much wort and put most in a 20 litre glass demi and some more in a 5 litre demi. I pitched the yeast in two, guesstimating the difference. I thought I'd ferment the 5 litre demi at 20 deg to make a sort of steam beer.

The small demi got going going pretty quick, possibly because the temp was much warmer, and the large one got off to a sluggish start, but going eventually. This could be because of my uncalculated approach to pouring the starter in the two batches - the smaller one ended up with a higher ratio of live yeast cells than the larger one. Then again I could be worrying over nothing and this yeast might just take a bit of time to get started.

On that note, I realised long after I'd pitched that the yeast I've harvested wasn't s-23, but was Mangrove Jack's Bohemian Pilsner yeast.

I've made a 1 litre starter for the S-04 now as I'll be brewing an oatmeal stout on Friday. So far it seems to be doing well.

Once the lagers are ready I'll let you know how they taste.

 

[jayjt29]

I've just harvested my first yeast from a Yorkshire bitter I done with West Ale yeast, Is it best to use light dry malt extract? When I come to use it again.

Cheers
Jay :)

 

[CreweBrewer]

I've just harvested my first yeast from a Yorkshire bitter I done with West Ale yeast, Is it best to use light dry malt extract? When I come to use it again.

Cheers
Jay :)

Or medium/dark depending on the style of brew you wish to pitch the starter into.

Dave

 

[MyQul]

Or medium/dark depending on the style of brew you wish to pitch the starter into.

Dave

I tend to ignore all that about not putting dark starter wort in pales etc as I'm not brewing a beer for a competition, I'm brewing it for the taste

 

[CreweBrewer]

I tend to ignore all that about not putting dark starter wort in pales etc as I'm not brewing a beer for a competition, I'm brewing it for the taste

Fair dues pal :-D

 

[MyQul]

I've just harvested my first yeast from a Yorkshire bitter I done with West Ale yeast, Is it best to use light dry malt extract? When I come to use it again.

Cheers
Jay :)

If your watching the pennies (or just tight) you can just use the wort from your beer as a starter. You'll have to plan it so it's the beer after the one your currently making as you need a couple of days to ferment the starter out - if that makes sense

 

[jceg316]

+1 for not bothered about the colour. I've never done an extract brew and bought some DME a while back with the purpose of making starters, and just to have a different source of sugar lying around. It happened to be medium extract, still full of sugar and still seemed to worked. Most videos I've watched/instructions I've read say they use light extract, and some people do a mini mash with the grains they are using for the beer the yeast will go into.

If you don't want the starter in your final beer but want the yeast, you can always cold crash the starter and carefully decant the extract whilst keeping the yeast. Do keep a bit of extract in there though as it will make life a lot easier to swirl the yeast around and pour it out.

 

[jayjt29]

Cheers guys, not having much experience with DME, I was thinking that the light would be better as more neutral is this not the case? I'm not brewing for competitions either and brew for the end result for me. but thought the light extract would be less of an influence to the end result or due to the small amount used does it not matter?

Good tips about the wort from a batch prior to the one your using the harvested yeast on Myqul :) If only Id have known last week I could have saved some!

Cheers
Jay :)