Starsan water suitability

[CRoark]

When or if the solution turns cloudy its had it and should be discarded.

Jim

I think this might be wrong information, my starsan goes cloudy as soon as it mixes with my tap water (hard water area), the PH hangs around 2.5 and I use it until I decide it looks a bit dirty or it runs out after many weeks of use and a few buckets/bottles/equipment sanitised.

Plenty of other forums' users also reporting that it goes cloudy on contact with their water but is perfectly useable for months.

I think it is the PH that is probably the most accurate measure of if it is still working or not.

I agree, as long as you test it each time you use it and the pH is below 3.5 you are good to go. I've used the same batch of StarSan that I store in a sealed plastic bucket for about 2 months with no problems. I did notice that it does create a white film in the bottom but I just give it a good stir and have never had any infection problems.

 

[Swazi]

The pH of your tap water doesn't matter one bit at all. It's the alkalinity that matters. For example, water with pH7 & alkalinity of 500ppm CaCo3 will have a huge buffering effect on the starsan, rendering it useless if used at the recommended dilution. Water with alkalinity of 0pmm CaCo3 & pH7 will have no buffering effect on starsan and will work perfectly used at the recommended dilution.
Again, the pH of the water you start with doesn't matter at all, and all domestic or bottled water will have a similar pH, pretty close to neutral.

 

[morethanworts]

The pH of your tap water doesn't matter one bit at all. It's the alkalinity that matters. For example, water with pH7 & alkalinity of 500ppm CaCo3 will have a huge buffering effect on the starsan, rendering it useless if used at the recommended dilution. Water with alkalinity of 0pmm CaCo3 & pH7 will have no buffering effect on starsan and will work perfectly used at the recommended dilution.
Again, the pH of the water you start with doesn't matter at all, and all domestic or bottled water will have a similar pH, pretty close to neutral.

I know this thread has rumbled on a bit, but I'm learning quite a lot, I think!

SOooo... My water has an average of 61mg/L Calcium, which I think I can take as 61ppm, from a quick Google. Going by that, it has low alkalinity (<100 mg/L) and should be fine with Star San.

As I said somewhere above, the World Health Org. recommends drinking water to be between pH 6.5 and 8.5, so it was hard to see that range in pH would be a problem that Star San had overlooked.

 

[mabrungard]

SOooo... My water has an average of 61mg/L Calcium, which I think I can take as 61ppm, from a quick Google. Going by that, it has low alkalinity (<100 mg/L) and should be fine with Star San.

I think you are going to find that StarSan clouds up fairly quickly in that water. I'd say that anything above 5 ppm Ca is likely to cloud up. It will still work as a sanitizer for immediate use, but I find that it becomes slimey after a couple of days when its cloudy.

 

[bunkerbrewer]

As I said somewhere above, the World Health Org. recommends drinking water to be between pH 6.5 and 8.5, so it was hard to see that range in pH would be a problem that Star San had overlooked.

We don't know that StarSan was ever designed or intended to work with a wide range of tap waters. Producing a no-rinse sanitiser must be a tricky business, especially getting it approved for food use, so I guess the compromise for convenience is that you have to mix it with the right sort of water.

Anyway I doubt that domestic home brew use is their biggest market anyway - if you're selling commercially you'd expect the customer to mix up your chemicals exactly according to the supplied guidelines. Us homebrewers like to try different things and experiment a bit more :)

 

[Aleman]

SOooo... My water has an average of 61mg/L Calcium, which I think I can take as 61ppm, from a quick Google. Going by that, it has low alkalinity (<100 mg/L) and should be fine with Star San.

:wha: :wha: :wha: :wha: :wha:

I don't see how you can say that because you have calcium of 61ppm you have less than 100ppm alkalinity. While the two ions are commonly linked, they are not always so, Burton water for example can have a calcium level of ~270 ppm and an alkalinity of ~140 (as HCO3-).

The fact is that star san is best made up with distilled or RO water. That is the way it is, accept it and move on!

Tap water (even mine with a Ca of around 16 and alkalinity of 30) will cause it to go cloudy. The ashbeck water I buy at my local Tesco is fine and does not cloud after a period of months.

 

[Northern Brewer]

This thread is going on a bit, seems relatively simple to me.

option 1. - get Reverse Osmosis - RO water from a pet shop/garden centre that sells fish - cheapest and leaves less room for error as its just water. I get it for 50p a gallon.
option 2. - if you don't have a source of RO nearby then Ashbeck mineral water has been tried and tested, not as cheap as RO and has some salts but maybe easier to get
option 3. - use steam iron/battery deionised water, effectively same as option 1.) however typicaly sold in small quantities and more expensive but easy to get.

The above are tried and tested.

option 4. - air conditioning condense water should be OK - don't use condense water from a condensing boiler as it contains stuff from the combustion chamber so not the same as air con water.

option 5. - test your tap water and if low enough in salts and alkalinity only make enough to use in one session. Not good for long term storage.

My favourite is option 1 as it takes all the guess work out of it and solution I have had for 6 months hasn't gone cloudy.

Edit - changed Ashdown for Ashbeck

 

[morethanworts]

SOooo... My water has an average of 61mg/L Calcium, which I think I can take as 61ppm, from a quick Google. Going by that, it has low alkalinity (<100 mg/L) and should be fine with Star San.

:wha: :wha: :wha: :wha: :wha:

I don't see how you can say that because you have calcium of 61ppm you have less than 100ppm alkalinity. While the two ions are commonly linked, they are not always so, Burton water for example can have a calcium level of ~270 ppm and an alkalinity of ~140 (as HCO3-).

The fact is that star san is best made up with distilled or RO water. That is the way it is, accept it and move on!

Tap water (even mine with a Ca of around 16 and alkalinity of 30) will cause it to go cloudy. The ashbeck water I buy at my local Tesco is fine and does not cloud after a period of months.

My remark about calcium and alkalinity was a direct response to Swazi's preceding post, if you read it. I was summing up what I could perhaps take from that. I did re-quote Swazi in the post, so I hoped it was clear that I was not saying I had primary information to offer.

Have we really established why (and even if) cloudiness makes it unusable, if it's not directly linked to pH? [EDIT - In fairness, slimeyness would be off-putting!]

Let's accept that the thread could end now if we just all went and bought RO water, but those who wish to understand things further may want to learn more.

 

[alanywiseman.]

I have tried to stay away from this topic but thought I would post this wee LINK.

It is a Craigtube video where he talks about starsan and the cloudyness etc. I am not say he is right by any means but what is of more use is the links in his comments. There are 2 interviews whith 2 seperate people from Five Star Chemicals (producers of StarSan). They are worth a listen espcially as they do not agree on a number of things about their product!

 

[Aleman]

My remark about calcium and alkalinity was a direct response to Swazi's preceding post, if you read it. I was summing up what I could perhaps take from that.

I take it this was the piece of information that you refer to.

water with pH7 & alkalinity of 500ppm CaCo3

I can perceive where the problem arises, in that Junior ( - Thought I'd forgotten eh Pete? :twisted: ), has quoted alkalinity in the same way that a lot of water companies quote it as CaCO3. Unfortunately this is completely **** for brewing purposes as it makes the assumption that ALL the alkalinity is derived from CaCO3, which is rarely the case. Alkalinity is a direct measure of the bicarbonate/carbonate ion concentration, irrespective of what cation it is joined to. While you can calculate the amount of bicarbonate from a solution of calcium carbonate, it does not relate to tap water as there are other moeities present, that will alter things.

Have we really established why (and even if) cloudiness makes it unusable, if it's not directly linked to pH? [EDIT - In fairness, slimeyness would be off-putting!]

the cloudiness is probably calcium phosphate, which is precipitated,as it is even less soluble than calcium carbonate. The calcium is provided (probably) from the water, and the phosphate from the starsan (the phosphoric acid component). Now as we have already established to be effective a working solution (at 300ppm) of starsan must have a pH of 3.0 or lower, now if you have already eliminated some of the phosphate by reacting it with calcium, and the alkalinity of the water buffers the pH drop (caused by adding the phosphoric acid), then you may not get into the effective working pH. In order to be certain you need to measure the solutions working pH using an accurate meter . . (I have little faith in pH strips, beyond thats Acid or thats alkali). I have 'recovered a cloudy solution of starsan by adding more phosphoric acid, so that the working solution was pH was below 3.0

I am not convinced that sliminess is a problem as my working solution of starsan always feel slimy anyway . . .even when freshly made up.

 

[morethanworts]

:thumb:

Definitely getting somewhere now, thanks Aleman and Alanywiseman.

I haven't had chance to watch the vids yet, but interesting stuff. If only the cloudiness formed at exactly pH3.5 and served as a visual guide, but it sounds like there's more chemistry going on than that.

We could have had a Star San Feck Test. Imagine the joy...

Aleman - I was so looking forward to my 99p litmus strips off of that well know auction site, from which everything is obviously perfect and fault free. How could you possibly spoil my bargain?

 

[bunkerbrewer]

We could have had a Star San Feck Test. Imagine the joy...

Star Feck - The Next Generation?

 

[Swazi]

water with pH7 & alkalinity of 500ppm CaCo3

Yep, guilty of over simplifying things.

The fact is that star san is best made up with distilled or RO water. That is the way it is, accept it and move on!

:clap: :clap: :clap: Now thats how you simplify it.

 

[morethanworts]

Just to show what we already know, my cloudy Star San ar pH2. Good enough for me, I think.

Edit - too strong? (if I were to trust the test strip.)

 

[rpt]

I get a similar result but I'm not sure how much I should trust the cheap Chinese test strips I got off eBay.

 

[Aleman]

I agree . . . That is Acid :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:












Any more than that is perhaps a little more speculative :lol: :lol:

 

[morethanworts]

Regarding my ebay 99p test strips :pray: - I tried some dilution, gradually down to PH7 (water) and it at least passed through all the colours on the card! I will try to get my lab technician friend either to check the calibration of them (or just get me something better!). If I'm using Star San, it's better than nothing, for now...