Sparge question..

[Clint]

Hello all
Regarding sparging...I read somewhere that you should keep the sparge water level above the grain bed when sparging
Obviously this isn't possible with a system like the Grain Father as the malt tube is lifted for the sparge...so what's the difference?

 

[foxy]

I think you may be referring to the difference of fly sparge and batch sparge.

 

[Clint]

What about the one where you dunk the bag?

 

[foxy]

What about the one where you dunk the bag?

I am not so familiar with BIAB though that sounds like a batch sparge.
Did you know BIAB was a method used by Victorian women for brewing beer.

 

[Clint]

With my method of gradually jugging the water over the grain bed and draining at the same time...what's that?
I'm trying to determine whether a suspended or submerged grain bed is better..

 

[peebee]

If I remember rightly (which I often don't!):

Keeping the sparge water level a tad above the grain bed was only to stop it setting like concrete. "Fixed" mash tuns would be problematic in such situations. Lifting the "grain pipe" out of the wort in one-pot arrangements obviously doesn't share those anxieties. It just drains.

I find the "old" way marginally less effective as what drains out long after sparging and run-off is done will have a higher gravity than the "end of runnings".


What you do with a jug is "fly sparging" in that you are not chucking a big quantity of water into the grain all at once ("batch sparging").

 

[Clint]

Yes..that makes sense. So lifting the malt tube method is more effective...I wonder if making a malt tube for the Igloo is doable...solid sides with perforated bottom...run off the initial mash liquid then lift the tube over the boiler and sparge into...probably be easier to insulate the kettle and mash in that...or buy a GF...

 

[peebee]

Yes..that makes sense. So lifting the malt tube method is more effective...I wonder if making a malt tube for the Igloo is doable...solid sides with perforated bottom...run off the initial mash liquid then lift the tube over the boiler and sparge into...probably be easier to insulate the kettle and mash in that...or buy a GF...

Yeah, "buy a GF". Not cheap though. And how do I use my GF? … to emulate a BIAB setup; possibly the cheapest, simplest, brewing technique of all.

 

[Clint]

I don't think I'll get one...it would definitely go wrong..I can't break what I've got now!

 

[Keruso]

With my method of gradually jugging the water over the grain bed and draining at the same time...what's that?
I'm trying to determine whether a suspended or submerged grain bed is better..

That’s what you do with a grainfather and alike

 

[Pjam]

I worked hard to get Fly sparging going and Ive gone back to batch sparge for ease. I dont think there's a great deal of difference.

 

[PhilBrew]

I think it's interesting how the development of the terminology in this area of brewing has focussed on the "sparging" aspect of the process, when what we're talking about most of the time when we use that term is actually "sparging and lautering" ... with sparging describing the addition of liquor onto the grain, while lautering is formally (and formerly) the term for extracting sweet wort from the grain, but nowadays we seem to use just sparging to mean both ... this adopted terminology works most of the time, but I feel the one area it lets us down in is (ironically) when trying to distinguish between batch-sparging and fly-sparging ... because the real distinction between those techniques isn't so much about what you're doing at the sparging end of the tun, with fly-sparging you're lautering and sparging at the same time, you're sparging "on the fly" of lautering, and with batch sparging you're lautering at different times from sparging ... given these definitions, you can see that what's going on when pouring water over the top of grain in a malt pipe in a GF or in a BIAB bag suspended over a boiler is a crude form of fly-sparge, whereas if the brewer were to lift that malt pipe/grain bag over into some water in a bucket and dunk-sparge, then that would be a crude form of batch sparge.

With my method of gradually jugging the water over the grain bed and draining at the same time...what's that?
I'm trying to determine whether a suspended or submerged grain bed is better..

... it sounds like you have a separate mash tun and you're jugging water into the top of it at the same time as lautering from the bottom of it, so you're fly-sparging ... whether you're adding the water in cupfuls, jugfulls or using some fancy rotating-headed sprinkler system, if the tap at the bottom of the tun is open at the same time as adding water into the top you're fly-sparging ... now, when fly-sparging the speed of lautering is critical, you want the grain bed to compact enough to form an effective filter to deliver clear wort, but not get so compacted as to turn into a stuck mash (with the grain bed so compact the sparge water can't flow through it) ... lautering too quickly will compact the grain bed more, as will letting the top of the grain bed dry out ... hence the advice about letting the wort flow out of the tun slowly, and to add sparge water in at a rate to maintain a small amount of water above the level of grain ... by doing that you'll maintain the rates of lautering and sparging so that the two happen at similar rates and the rate of flow through the grain bed will be consistent

Cheers, PhilB

 

[Cheshire Cat]

When I started AG I fly sparged with a child's watering can and did this for years. When I came onto this forum I learned about BHE and when I retrospectively checked the efficiency it was all over the place. I then tried batch sparging (again learnt here) and now I have a consistent and 10% higher efficiency.

 

[Rogermort]

While we're on the subject, how long would you aim to take when fly sparging, say a 23 litre batch?

 

[alsch890]

I think i do what does. That is, I have a covering for the mash tun made out of one-use BBQ thingys and then take jugs of water out of the boiler and pour it over. I try to keep the water level around an inch above the top of the grain bed and pour on and lauter out at the same time. This is "fly-sparging" right? Even though I sometimes get a little out of sync and it builds up, or drops off...

I took a photo yesterday and I'm glad I did as I ended up with an OG about 10 points light so looking for clues...

 

[PhilBrew]

how long would you aim to take when fly sparging, say a 23 litre batch?

... I believe around 1ltr per minute is an often quoted rate for small scale systems, so bearing in mind you may "vorlauf" the first few litres (lauter out some wort and recirculate it back into the top of the tun) until the wort runs clear, then you're probably looking at around 30-35 mins ... but ultimately, the process becomes a pay-off between efficiency and time and at the scale of us home-brewers (and even for some pro-brewers) the cost of a bit more grain can seem minimal compared to the time taken and patience needed ... and/or, as Cheshire Cat's experiences may well be an example of, it can be easy when trying to speed up a fly-sparge to compact the grain bed, not enough to stick but just enough to create channels through the grain, so the sparge water comes into contact with hardly any of the grain, leading to poorer efficiency than could have been achieved by batch sparging

This is "fly-sparging" right?

... Yes ... but then there are all sorts of reasons why your OG might have been low, including those related to less efficient fly-sparging as discussed above ... do you usually hit your OG targets?

Cheers, PhilB

 

[OldPeculiar]

Hi Clint, I use an Igloo type cooler with a plastic mesh false bottom and 2 'flexible hose' pipes of the type you'd use for coolant on a lathe (from RS components), I recirc through my RIMS via my pump, I do occasionally have to pop the lid to see i'm not going too fast with the sparge, but it works for me.. I'll have to get a picture on here!, always think that, but never get around to it on brew days!

 

[Rogermort]

... I believe around 1ltr per minute is an often quoted rate for small scale systems, so bearing in mind you may "vorlauf" the first few litres (lauter out some wort and recirculate it back into the top of the tun) until the wort runs clear, then you're probably looking at around 30-35 mins ... but ultimately, the process becomes a pay-off between efficiency and time and at the scale of us home-brewers (and even for some pro-brewers) the cost of a bit more grain can seem minimal compared to the time taken and patience needed ... and/or, as Cheshire Cat's experiences may well be an example of, it can be easy when trying to speed up a fly-sparge to compact the grain bed, not enough to stick but just enough to create channels through the grain, so the sparge water comes into contact with hardly any of the grain, leading to poorer efficiency than could have been achieved by batch sparging

... Yes ... but then there are all sorts of reasons why your OG might have been low, including those related to less efficient fly-sparging as discussed above ... do you usually hit your OG targets?

Cheers, PhilB

Interesting. I've always aimed to take at least an hour over the sparge and generally only need to vorlauf around 500ml to be running clear.

 

[Clint Eastwood]

Hi Clint, I use an Igloo type cooler with a plastic mesh false bottom and 2 'flexible hose' pipes of the type you'd use for coolant on a lathe (from RS components), I recirc through my RIMS via my pump, I do occasionally have to pop the lid to see i'm not going too fast with the sparge, but it works for me.. I'll have to get a picture on here!, always think that, but never get around to it on brew days!

I for one would like to see your set-up mate as I run the same igloo with a stainless false bottom. I like others just use a jug and "sprinkle" here there & everywhere. Which can be exhausting when doing two batches concurrently.

 

[alsch890]

... Yes ... but then there are all sorts of reasons why your OG might have been low, including those related to less efficient fly-sparging as discussed above ... do you usually hit your OG targets?

Cheers, PhilB

Yes, thats the strange thing. I don't have great efficiency, around 64-65%, but it is consistent. Except the last two brews on the trot that have come in around 10 points down and I haven't consciously changed anything!