Sparge alternative idea

[simon12]

I independently came up with this idea so there must be a major issue with it but I can't see what it is. OK so instead of a sparge with water to extract the remaining wort from the grain why not put the grain in something like an apple press and squeeze it out then top up with water to the desired OG, or you could do it as well as a sparge for even better efficiency. I can see it could be more hassle for many but would make sense in circumstances where efficiency is very important. It likely made more sense when malt was taxed not alcohol or during war time grain shortages. So what have I missed or has this been done and I just never knew?

 

[Sadfield]

I think you are very much describing the mash filter process used in macro brewing, instead of lautering through the grain bed. When doing this, the grist is ground into a flour to achieve maximum efficiency.

Wouldn't work very well at a homebrew level as the muslin bag wouldn't filter sufficiently.

 

[uDicko]

Isn't there also a tannin extraction issue here? I've been known to be wrong on a number of occasions but always worked on the principle not to squeeze the life out of the bag once sparged or no sparged because of this.

 

[MickDundee]

Isn't there also a tannin extraction issue here? I've been known to be wrong on a number of occasions but always worked on the principle not to squeeze the life out of the bag once sparged or no sparged because of this.

If there’s a brewing theory out there, Brulosophy will have done an exbeeriment on it:
http://brulosophy.com/2017/05/22/br...ag-has-on-beer-character-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Brewed_Force]

Isn't there also a tannin extraction issue here? I've been known to be wrong on a number of occasions but always worked on the principle not to squeeze the life out of the bag once sparged or no sparged because of this.

The 'problem' of tannins being released when squeezing the grain has been debunked.
I squeeze the living daylights out of my grain bag and get good efficiency (82%) and no tannins.

 

[uDicko]

Every day is a school day :tinhat:

 

[foxbat]

@Sadfield is right it's the mash filter process and small brewers are doing it too. There's a good journal-style report of the system here. The mash filter is on page 2.

https://www.craftbrewingbusiness.co...ewhouse-efficiency-brewers-power-hebs-system/

 

[kelper]

deleted post

 

[Sadfield]

@Sadfield is right it's the mash filter process and small brewers are doing it too. There's a good journal-style report of the system here. The mash filter is on page 2.

https://www.craftbrewingbusiness.co...ewhouse-efficiency-brewers-power-hebs-system/

Great link. I wasn't aware that it was starting to become more commonplace in smaller craft breweries.

It's interesting that they state that they have to be careful will volumes and temperature to avoid tannin extraction. I thought that had been debunked.

 

[simon12]

OK so the commercial version uses a similar concept but would doing it just using an apple press or similar cause tannin or other issues. I was thinking just dump the grain in one and squeeze it virtually dry.

 

[Sadfield]

OK so the commercial version uses a similar concept but would doing it just using an apple press or similar cause tannin or other issues. I was thinking just dump the grain in one and squeeze it virtually dry.

You may or may not extract tannins, and it would be easy to monitor by tasting. I'm not sure you'd extract much extra with a normal crush over standard methods, and a fine, floury grist will need more than muslin to achieve a clear(ish) wort. Any small particles of husk that get through, could cause astringency in a 60 minute boil.

 

[Madhouse]

Other than it being a faff I don't see why you couldn't do it.

But then, I don't know how much more you'd gain either.

 

[foxbat]

It's interesting that they state that they have to be careful will volumes and temperature to avoid tannin extraction. I thought that had been debunked.

All the information I've read including from @mabrungard is that high pH and high temperatures combined are the issue.

High temperature alone cannot be the issue, nor can boiling husks otherwise decoction mashing wouldn't be possible.

 

[Sadfield]

All the information I've read including from @mabrungard is that high pH and high temperatures combined are the issue.

High temperature alone cannot be the issue, nor can boiling husks otherwise decoction mashing wouldn't be possible.

Agreed. Although you miss out time as a factors, decoctions aren't boiled for an hour. I did say, could, and not will cause astringency. Partly on the assumption that some homebrewers don't always hit or even monitor pH.

 

[Patrick Robinson]

Great link. I wasn't aware that it was starting to become more commonplace in smaller craft breweries.

It's interesting that they state that they have to be careful will volumes and temperature to avoid tannin extraction. I thought that had been debunked.

I was also surprised to read that it's becoming more common. I thought that it was mainly done in macro brewing. I have to say that using an apple press is quite a creative idea! If you get a chance to try it, let us know if it worked for you or not... I may want to try it too.

 

[foxy]

If you are factoring in the loss to grain absorption you should be hitting your OG targets, I can't see it being worthwhile going to all that trouble of putting the grain through an apple press. I am sure that those who say squeezing does not extract tannins were not expecting apple presses coming into play. If over sparging can extract tannins I would say an apple press or running the grain through a mangle would.
For me I go the opposite way, accept a loss in efficiency, factor in losses for a full volume mash and no sparge. Keeps brew day simple.

 

[JonBrew]

This is pretty much what they showed you Carling are doing in that BBC program, 'Inside the Factory'. I had no idea large scale commercial breweries were milling to flour essentially, let alone that it was now making it's way into smaller 'craft' breweries.

It's kind of a cool idea to see if you could set up an equivalent system at homebrew scale. I have a straining bag (quite small though) which is incredibly fine mesh - you cant really see the holes in it - so perhaps something as fine as that could be employed at homebrew scale to try it out.

Having said all that, whilst this could be an interesting/fun experiment, for me it would be way too much faff to go on a regular basis when, really, as homebrewers we don't need to be squeezing every last penny of wort out of our grain.