Sour help.

[Weatherman]

Evening all

I’m planning to make the Raspberry imperial sour wit from Euan Ferguson “craft brew” book

I think I understand what I should be doing but would like to confirm, if possible. I have made a sour with Philly Sour before but want something more sour.

So, once cooled I plan to pitch WLP400 and leave it for 12 days.

Then I plan to pitch WLP672 and W5112 and add 700 g of raspberry puree.

Then, I plan to leave it for 8weeks in the Fermentor.

So the questions are, does that sound right?

Do I need to rack the wort into another bucket after 12 days before adding the raspberry and lactobacillus and brettanomyces?

The receipe also says to all to free rise….so, I plan to leave the inkbird on with a temp set but unplug the cooling circuit so, if the ambient temp drops the heater will kick in but, if the heat naturally rises, the fridge won’t kick in to cool it.

Thanks for any replies and opinions.

 

[Jiffy176]

For what it's worth I did the basic sour recepie that is on Malt Miller which is basically two bottles of Polish rasberry syrup instead of the fruit and i added them 10 mins before the end of the boil.
I then used two sachets of Philly Sour dry, pitched straight out the pack.
The way the philly works is amazing it produced the lactic acid to sour first then stops, then the usual yeast takes over. The airlock literally bubble for 3 days, stops then starts after a day or two.
All I know is that it produced a mighty fine sour. I took a bottle to one of my colleagues and he was mighty impressed and rated it as nailed on the first attempt.
Having used Philly sour I don't see what you'd want anything else, it's so easy and also doesn't risk infections with equipment going forward.

Just re read your post, you want more sour then philly, wow. Mine is properly sour.
I think I'd still add the puree in at the end of the boil though rather than after 12 days.
I'm not sure about re racking either unless you don't want it sat on the yeast cake for all the resting tike?

 

[Weatherman]

For what it's worth I did the basic sour recepie that is on Malt Miller which is basically two bottles of Polish rasberry syrup instead of the fruit and i added them 10 mins before the end of the boil.
I then used two sachets of Philly Sour dry, pitched straight out the pack.
The way the philly works is amazing it produced the lactic acid to sour first then stops, then the usual yeast takes over. The airlock literally bubble for 3 days, stops then starts after a day or two.
All I know is that it produced a mighty fine sour. I took a bottle to one of my colleagues and he was mighty impressed and rated it as nailed on the first attempt.
Having used Philly sour I don't see what you'd want anything else, it's so easy and also doesn't risk infections with equipment going forward.

Just re read your post, you want more sour then philly, wow. Mine is properly sour.
I think I'd still add the puree in at the end of the boil though rather than after 12 days.
I'm not sure about re racking either unless you don't want it sat on the yeast cake for all the resting tike?

Morning Jiffy

Thanks for the reply. The Gose I made with the sour is tart rather than sour. It’s nothing near as sour as the various other commercial sours you can buy. It maybe than something wasn’t right with how I used the Philly sour?

I pitched 2 packs of Philly previously in a 20 litre batch.

Although the above is complex (and expensive yeast wise!) my assumption is that it more replicates commercial breweries and so more likely to give the sourness I’m looking for. It is a complete assumption though. Do any breweries use Philly yeast to make their sours?

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Yes commercial breweries use Philly sour.
You could add more acid to the ferment or use some acid malt in the mash.
Other souring techniques might add complexity to your flavour. Once you add the perception of sweet with the fruit then getting balance is the key.
Not sure how much is going to be achieved with so long on the fruit.

 

[Weatherman]

Yes commercial breweries use Philly sour.
You could add more acid to the ferment or use some acid malt in the mash.
Other souring techniques might add complexity to your flavour. Once you add the perception of sweet with the fruit then getting balance is the key.
Not sure how much is going to be achieved with so long on the fruit.

Some more food for thought, thanks. I will look into lowering the pH and try again with Philly sour.

Creating my own recipes and making additions is new to me. I do have the Brewfather app but, haven’t used it much at all.

 

[MickDundee]

You need to feed the Philly Sour a Hell of a lot of simple sugars to get it anywhere near sour enough. A guy in my brew club gets them really sour but he does like 11% sours with 4kg fruit in them.

My Percy pig sour was sour but not lip puckeringly-so and that was 800g Percy pigs, 250g caster sugar and a bottle of Innocent smoothie!

 

[Weatherman]

This is the recipe, for interest

 

[Weatherman]

You need to feed the Philly Sour a Hell of a lot of simple sugars to get it anywhere near sour enough. A guy in my brew club gets them really sour but he does like 11% sours with 4kg fruit in them.

My Percy pig sour was sour but not lip puckeringly-so and that was 800g Percy pigs, 250g caster sugar and a bottle of Innocent smoothie!

I’m beginning to think that adding some acid malt and some sugar into the kettle is the next step and see how we go from there.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

If you use a sacc yeastbsuch as opshaug kveik after the pH drop from the Philly you'll get approx 0.2 further pH drop.

 

[Sadfield]

All looks in order @Weatherman. pH isn't the whole picture, different acids of the same pH will have different degrees of sourness. Lactic on it's own is quite mild. The added Brett and Raspberries should add sourness by adding acetic, citric and malic acid.

 

[Weatherman]

All looks in order @Weatherman. pH isn't the whole picture, different acids of the same pH will have different degrees of sourness. Lactic on it's own is quite mild. The added Brett and Raspberries should add sourness by adding acetic, citric and malic acid.

Many thanks. Mrs W has also recommended “just follow the damn recipe” :)

 

[Weatherman]

On a side note, if I did follow the recipe above, how can you calculate the abv. You will know the OG but then after 12 days are adding fruit syrup.

Can you measure the gravity at start, then prior to adding fruit, then after adding fruit and then at end? And then do some maths etc?

 

[RoomWithABrew]

if you know how much sugar is in the fruit just count it as if it was in at the start of your ferment so you have a higher OG than your starting OG. Then use FG to to work out ABV.

 

[Weatherman]

if you know how much sugar is in the fruit just count it as if it was in at the start of your ferment so you have a higher OG than your starting OG. Then use FG to to work out ABV.

Thanks. I am going to use a pre bought puree so the sugar content should be on the package.

I did google it and the general consensus seems to be “think of a number and then double it and divide by 2” :)

 

[stripeyjoe]

On a side note, if I did follow the recipe above, how can you calculate the abv. You will know the OG but then after 12 days are adding fruit syrup

Add the fruit in Brewfather as a secondary addition, if you are using one of those cocktail purées then they have around 10% added sugar… for a 1kg pouch I add 900g of fruit and 100g of sugar to Brewfather.
Brewfather then show 3 gravities, pre and post boil plus an ‘total’ one that takes account of secondary additions.

 

[Weatherman]

Add the fruit in Brewfather as a secondary addition, if you are using one of those cocktail purées then they have around 10% added sugar… for a 1kg pouch I add 900g of fruit and 100g of sugar to Brewfather.
Brewfather then show 3 gravities, pre and post boil plus an ‘total’ one that takes account of secondary additions.

View attachment 97650

That’s great thanks. I have transferred across to Brewfather

 

[dad_of_jon]

Evening all

I’m planning to make the Raspberry imperial sour wit from Euan Ferguson “craft brew” book

I think I understand what I should be doing but would like to confirm, if possible. I have made a sour with Philly Sour before but want something more sour.

So, once cooled I plan to pitch WLP400 and leave it for 12 days.

Then I plan to pitch WLP672 and W5112 and add 700 g of raspberry puree.

Then, I plan to leave it for 8weeks in the Fermentor.

So the questions are, does that sound right?

Do I need to rack the wort into another bucket after 12 days before adding the raspberry and lactobacillus and brettanomyces?

The receipe also says to all to free rise….so, I plan to leave the inkbird on with a temp set but unplug the cooling circuit so, if the ambient temp drops the heater will kick in but, if the heat naturally rises, the fridge won’t kick in to cool it.

Thanks for any replies and opinions.

I use the dregs of boon oude gueze from two bottles and a bit of clear strained greek yogurt juice with lacto. keep nice and warm 30c+ no yeast required. It will be uber sour when young but will mellow over time.

 

[Weatherman]

I use the dregs of boon oude gueze from two bottles and a bit of clear strained greek yogurt juice with lacto. keep nice and warm 30c+ no yeast required. It will be uber sour when young but will mellow over time.

That sounds like a great idea. How long does it take for the dregs to multiply into some that viable to pitch?

I think it’s a few steps on for my at this stage of my brewing career but sounds a great way to get what I need for a lot less,’£’s wise.

 

[NicF]

Just a note on Philly Sour, the Nic's Lazy Sour on TMM website is my recipe.

My understanding is that Philly sour works best when there are simple sugars present, and sugar is quite a high proportion of those the Polish syrups, that's why using them produces a lot of sourness.

If I was using fruit pulp then I'd probably add in some dextrose too.

For what it's worth I did the basic sour recepie that is on Malt Miller which is basically two bottles of Polish rasberry syrup instead of the fruit and i added them 10 mins before the end of the boil.
I then used two sachets of Philly Sour dry, pitched straight out the pack.
The way the philly works is amazing it produced the lactic acid to sour first then stops, then the usual yeast takes over. The airlock literally bubble for 3 days, stops then starts after a day or two.
All I know is that it produced a mighty fine sour. I took a bottle to one of my colleagues and he was mighty impressed and rated it as nailed on the first attempt.
Having used Philly sour I don't see what you'd want anything else, it's so easy and also doesn't risk infections with equipment going forward.

Just re read your post, you want more sour then philly, wow. Mine is properly sour.
I think I'd still add the puree in at the end of the boil though rather than after 12 days.
I'm not sure about re racking either unless you don't want it sat on the yeast cake for all the resting tike?

 

[Jiffy176]

Good recepie Bro.