Sour Beers - Some naive questions!

[andyg55]

Hi everyone

I'm really into sour beers and this beer style alone got me into home brewing as a hobby. I bought the book "American Sour Beers" by Michael Tonsmeire as I wanted to learn more about the style and how I can make my own. I purchased a few recommended sours from the book including Belgian's such as 3 Fonteinen Oude Geuze and Orval, as well as American sours from the Jolly Pumpkin and New Belgium Breweries.

Interestingly, to me, these sours taste very "traditional" (for want of better words), and are nothing like the sours I'm drinking regularly around my City. The sours I've been exposed to are often quite tart and fruity (often featuring fruits like guava and the like), whereas these traditional sours remind me of being in an old Church. Pardon my naive descriptions, but I'm just trying to get my thoughts down.

My questions:
- What are these differences that I'm noticing?
- Are these differences based on style or trend?
- Despite tasting very different, are there similarities between the traditional sours and the ones I'm currently drinking?
- If I want to make the sours I'm more used to trying, where should I start?

I'd love to get everyone's (much more experienced) thoughts on this!

Cheers,
Andy

 

[strange-steve]

1. The vast majority of commercial sour beers we have access to here are probably "quick" sours, whereas Belgian sours are typically aged. I would say what you're tasting as "traditional" is the funk from brettanomyces.

2. Yes, quick sours are akin to Berliner weisse and are often kettle soured. Belgian sours like 3 Fonteinen or Cantillon are fermented spontaneously via natural yeast and bacteria from the environment. These are lambic or lambic variants like gueuze, kriek etc.

3. Yes they both contain lactic acid which is what makes them sour (apart from Orval which you mentioned). The difference between them is that the traditional ones contain wild yeast as well as bacteria whereas the more common ones usually don't.

4. Google kettle souring and Berliner weisse, Milk the Funk is a great website to look at.

 

[andyg55]

Thanks for the information. I actually contacted a local brewery who makes these styles and they explained their method for one of the particular sours I'm talking about:

"The grain is 75% 2 row, 20% wheat malt, 5% acid malt. 60 min mash @ 64 degrees. 10 minute boil then we chill the wort and pitch out lacto culture. Let sour 12 hours then pitch yeast. For that one we are using a blend of Kviek strains. Use Voss if you can get it. We let it ferment out and when it's done we drop the temp to 18ish add our first dry hop. 3 days later we add another. 2 days later it's ready to go. note there are no bittering hops added. Due to our lacto culture being very hop sensitive."

Is this the "fast souring" method that you are referring to? Is this method kettle souring / Berliner weisee?

How long would this beer take to be ready from start to finish?

 

[dad_of_jon]

I did this....

13/07/2018
Face off - sour lacto boon - brew43 - green cap
3 kg richies extra light dme
500g DWE
450g golden syrup
added the clear liquid runoff from adsa genguine greek yogurt & the dregs from a boon oude gueze bottle. (available in waitrose)
1.067 og
01/08/2018 - 1.035 - ph4
19/08/2018 - 1.012 - ph4
did not prime - bottled at 1.012 as it will get down to 1.001 ish over time.
temps were 25-30 no extra yeast required. note all your kit is now contaminated.
7.22%

I'm absolutely going to do this again as the last use of my plastic fv, bottling wand etc before i buy new plastic. It's uber sour when new and then mellows over the next 6 months to a year.

 

[BeerCat]

@dad_of_jon A lovely beer. I have the dregs in one of my demijohns.

 

[BeerCat]

@andyg55 That is indeed the fast souring method. Some co pitch or add lacto after fermentation instead. Good read here.

 

[strange-steve]

Is this the "fast souring" method that you are referring to? Is this method kettle souring / Berliner weisee?

It is fast souring but it's not kettle souring. Kettle sours usually have a short boil to pasteurise (kill off the lactobacillus) before the yeast is pitched. Some people like this method because you don't have to expose any of your cold-side equipment to bacteria.

Homebrewed lambic style sour beer is typically just mashed and sparged as normal then pitched with a mixed culture of various yeast and bacteria strains, something like WLP655, then left for a year or so.

 

[andyg55]

It is fast souring but it's not kettle souring.

Would adding the kettle souring step (short boil) to the brewer's instructions alter the taste of the final product?

Homebrewed lambic style sour beer is typically just mashed and sparged as normal then pitched with a mixed culture of various yeast and bacteria strains, something like WLP655, then left for a year or so.

I actually just attempted this for the first time. I made a Heferweizen yesterday and pitched WLP655 with the Hef yeast. I've heard it will take about a year to finish. Going to be a long wait!

Moving on to my next beer, I'd like to mimic something like the local brewer described. Any simple protocols would be appreciated.

 

[andyg55]

I actually just found MTF's "Worst Souring" Wiki page so will follow their guidelines and combine it with instructions from my local brewer.

I do have 2 questions that I'll need help with in order to make the beer...

1. The brewer states "Pitch yeast - we are using a blend of Kviek strains. Use Voss if you can get it." Can someone provide me with a link to the recommended yeast? I don't seem to be able to find what they're talking about.

2. The brewer states "we drop the temp to 18ish add our first dry hop. 3 days later we add another. 2 days later it's ready to go." Any idea why the delay in one dry hop, then another? What is the reasoning for this? Apparently the beer contains El Dorado, Mosaic, and Amarillo. What order should I add these in and how much of each would you use for dry hopping a 5-gallon batch?

 

[Nicks90]

I'm only 6 weeks in to my sour journey, but I am super excited!
I just threw the dregs from a bottle of cantillon into a SMASH I took 4.5l from and am hoping for the best.

It's going well so far and whilst this is a long game for just 8 bottles of beer it will tell me if I need to get 5 or 6 demijohns on next time and up my game with sours!
I'll check in next year and let you know...

 

[strange-steve]

Would adding the kettle souring step (short boil) to the brewer's instructions alter the taste of the final product?

Possibly, but more importantly if you were to do this you would probably need to leave it for longer to ensure souring was complete.

Can someone provide me with a link to the recommended yeast?

https://www.geterbrewed.com/lallemand-voss-kviek-dried-yeast-11g/

Any idea why the delay in one dry hop, then another?

This is known as double dry-hopping, it's a method of changing and supposedly intensifying hoppiness.

Apparently the beer contains El Dorado, Mosaic, and Amarillo. What order should I add these in and how much of each would you use for dry hopping a 5-gallon batch?

There's many ways to skin a cat here. You could add half of each variety in two additions, or you could adjust the proportion of each in any number of ways. As for the amount, it depends how hoppy you want it although considering these are the only hops in the beer I would be tempted to go pretty big, 200-300g total would give a good hop aroma.

 

[cushyno]

I did this....

13/07/2018
Face off - sour lacto boon - brew43 - green cap
3 kg richies extra light dme
500g DWE
450g golden syrup
added the clear liquid runoff from adsa genguine greek yogurt & the dregs from a boon oude gueze bottle. (available in waitrose)
1.067 og
01/08/2018 - 1.035 - ph4
19/08/2018 - 1.012 - ph4
did not prime - bottled at 1.012 as it will get down to 1.001 ish over time.
temps were 25-30 no extra yeast required. note all your kit is now contaminated.
7.22%

I'm absolutely going to do this again as the last use of my plastic fv, bottling wand etc before i buy new plastic. It's uber sour when new and then mellows over the next 6 months to a year.

@dad_of_jon You sent me a Face off when it was young (2018?) and it was mouth puckering. As a new brewer who hadn't tasted sour beers back then I didn't know what to make of it, but certainly remember how sour it was.

Wish I'd kept the dregs now. However, your approach looks repeatable, so maybe I'll have a go myself sometime. Sours are a whole new world.