Slow dive into water

[ChrisD123]

having restarted my brewing journey i thought i would dive in to the staple necessity water, just starting to investigate my local water...
Test kits will be ordered soon but as a start i downloaded my local water quality report...as follows...(all mean figures)

PH 7.57
Sodium - 5.28
Sulphate - 2.20
Chloride - 12.37
Calcium - 4.2
magnesium - 0.56
Hardness - 12.78
Soft

Now to get my head around the various aspects of water treatments etc...the journey really begins now

 

[hoppyscotty]

Don't need to 'get into it'. Just use one of the many calculators that are free to use....get an understanding of the profile of the water you're dealing with...and your local water authorities annual water report is not good enough...invest in a quarterly analysis of your tap water..or use reverse osmosis water or some other commercially avail water where the profile is known. Then do your research on the ideal target water profile for the beer you're brewing...and this is not necessarily the traditional water profile for that style...these styles emerged to suit the water they had on hand...but its not necessarily the best or optimal water profile for the beer style.

Then just use the calculator and that will tell you what you need to do to treat your water. This method is not the be all and end alll...of course you can go into it alot more deeply if you wanted to...but to get 95% of the way there its good enough.

 

[ChrisD123]

Thank you...i understand the annual report is not ideal but its a start...finding it all very interesting as previously i didnt bother even thinking about the water...the more i read about the different aspects of brewing and of course the plethora of info on here the more i am getting absorbed...

 

[foxy]

A good podcast here with John Palmer, I was interested in the magnesium side of brewing salts. I never have added magnesium to brewing water because the grain has enough, I did read 100 ppm is contained in the malt in a typical brew. But Palmer goes on to explain that calcium blocks the pathway to magnesium so the yeast can't take it up (the yeast will use the magnesium during fermentation)
Martin Brungard also adds a pinch of magnesium to his brews I looked further into it and came across this and a few other technical articles about magnesium in brewing water.
Magnesium-Accelerated Maillard Reactions DriveDifferences in Adjunct and All-Malt Brewing. (Type into Google.)

 

[hoppyscotty]

Its a good podcast that...I need to re-watch it and take some notes (downside of listening to Podcasts in the car). Also come across a couple of pro brewers recently who've said they add their calcium additions to the kettle rather than in the mash. Might have something to do with the Calcium being a blocker to magnesium take up...cant remember if it's mentioned in the podcast.

 

[foxy]

Its a good podcast that...I need to re-watch it and take some notes (downside of listening to Podcasts in the car). Also come across a couple of pro brewers recently who've said they add their calcium additions to the kettle rather than in the mash. Might have something to do with the Calcium being a blocker to magnesium take up...cant remember if it's mentioned in the podcast.

I think he covered everything he spoke about very well. The PDF is worth a read too, I couldn't copy and paste it has to be Googled.

 

[MickDundee]

Thank you...i understand the annual report is not ideal but its a start...finding it all very interesting as previously i didnt bother even thinking about the water...the more i read about the different aspects of brewing and of course the plethora of info on here the more i am getting absorbed...

Our annual report is all I really have to go on. That plus the Jim’s Beer Kit calculator gets me into the right ballpark 99.9% of the time (to my tongue anyway).

I have a vacuum jar with bags of gypsum, calcium chloride, Epsom salts, chalk and table salt that I weigh out using our kitchen scales (I have very soft water and have never had issues with my mash ph so have never needed CRS)

 

[ChrisD123]

thanks Mick...i am near Inverness so our water is classed as soft...

 

[peebee]

having restarted my brewing journey i thought i would dive in to the staple necessity water, just starting to investigate my local water...
Test kits will be ordered soon but as a start i downloaded my local water quality report...as follows...(all mean figures)

PH 7.57
Sodium - 5.28
Sulphate - 2.20
Chloride - 12.37
Calcium - 4.2
magnesium - 0.56
Hardness - 12.78
Soft

Now to get my head around the various aspects of water treatments etc...the journey really begins now

See those last two lines? "Hardness", and. "Soft".

Take a thick black pen and put a line through them both. They are of no practical use to you whatsoever. People will try to tell you differently. But including them will confuse everything else and leave you thinking "what a complicated subject water is". It isn't! It's a piece of cake.

There are complicated bits of water chemistry, but they all exist in environments outside what you'd be tempted to make beer from. The biggest mystery with water ... is why do people make such a song and dance about it.


Don't forget to study what that John Palmer is telling you in those videos above ... that should screw your head up good and proper.

 

[Galena]

I would suggest getting a professional water report, at least once. https://phoenix-analytical.co.uk/index.html is a good place.
As your water is low mineral then you may not need to get it done again, just check it with a Salifert kit.
THIS is the method I use and very easy to do.

 

[peebee]

That what @Galena posted is a giggle ... someone saying John Palmer's book is great ... for falling asleep with!

I wouldn't bother with Salifert kits: They just don't have the resolution to do anything for you (@ChrisD123). Even Wally at Pheonix Analytical will be hard pressed to make anything of your water. There are loads of people here using "RO Water"; they'll put the analysis of their RO Water down as a series of zeros. It isn't. It's got more dissolved solids than your water! You can consider your water as having zilch in it too and build from there. With one exception ... Alkalinity. And your water's Alkalinity is almost entirely due to the Lime the water company puts in it (to save their pipes from the corrosive nature of the water). I can tell they're doing it... "pH 7.57" ... all the evidence you need!

You've not been given "Alkalinity"? Doesn't matter, by the time it reaches your tap it'll will have changed. My water spreadsheet (below) tries to help you with that but you have to be determined. A pH meter and "suck it and see" approach might be good. But don't try to chase pH targets, you'll be driven daft. Go with the flow.

At the end-of-the-day you're making beer with better water than most here who are offering advice.

 

[Galena]

@peebee The only person who can make a complicated subject even more complicated at the same time he says he is simplifying it. Yes JP's book is great, there are more chapters than just water.

 

[peebee]

Yes, it annoys me to have to work so hard to show things are so simple. That spreadsheet I talk of has required loads of my time and ability, yet its purpose is to show things are simple. Why am I accused of making things difficult when I'm criticizing advice to do the (near) impossible (such as, measure the alkalinity of water in the sub-30mg/l CaCO3 range ... 60mg/l even). (@ChrisD123 will have less than 10mg/l as CaCO3 ... even mine is less than eight).

I get annoyed because I am accused of making things difficult, by those same people who suggest utterly impossible steps because they can't imagine people faced with different situations than their own. And you, especially, living where you do, know that.

JP's book is great; just totally irrelevant to home-brewing.


The "Defuddler", by-the-way, is undergoing alterations so it can be used with the calculator @MickDundee mentioned earlier (i.e. Graham Wheeler's calculator, which is really "Hardness" based, but not irredeemably so).

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84344, that's a mind-bending read!

 

[foxy]

Yes, it annoys me to have to work so hard to show things are so simple. That spreadsheet I talk of has required loads of my time and ability, yet its purpose is to show things are simple. Why am I accused of making things difficult when I'm criticizing advice to do the (near) impossible (such as, measure the alkalinity of water in the sub-30mg/l CaCO3 range ... 60mg/l even). (@ChrisD123 will have less than 10mg/l as CaCO3 ... even mine is less than eight).

I get annoyed because I am accused of making things difficult, by those same people who suggest utterly impossible steps because they can't imagine people faced with different situations than their own. And you, especially, living where you do, know that.

JP's book is great; just totally irrelevant to home-brewing.


The "Defuddler", by-the-way, is undergoing alterations so it can be used with the calculator @MickDundee mentioned earlier (i.e. Graham Wheeler's calculator, which is really "Hardness" based, but not irredeemably so).

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84344, that's a mind-bending read!

Sorry peebee, no offence but I agree with Galena. Each time a water question comes on it goes down the same path with the Defuddler confusing those wanting to get into water adjustments. Leave it to the likes of Palmer and Brungard, they get paid for explaining the simplicity of understanding brewing water. You don't. Sorry cobber.

 

[Galena]

Sorry peebee, no offence but I agree with Galena. Each time a water question comes on it goes down the same path with the Defuddler confusing those wanting to get into water adjustments. Leave it to the likes of Palmer and Brungard, they get paid for explaining the simplicity of understanding brewing water. You don't. Sorry cobber.

Exactly, somebody asks a water question and as soon as Peebee goes down his defuddler rabbit hole it drives the OP away.
So far as water for homebrew and treating it goes once you grasp it, is quite simple though it took me a long time to understand it, at least as far as making homebrew is concerned. The trouble with JP and others they make it too scientific which just confuses me, but if you can see through that then it makes sense. Even my simple brain can follow it now.

 

[Galena]

I get annoyed because I am accused of making things difficult, by those same people who suggest utterly impossible steps because they can't imagine people faced with different situations than their own. And you, especially, living where you do, know that.

If you are referring to my suggestion to use salifert kits and their inaccuracy at low concentrations of Calcium, well you can always scale it up using say 10 times the water and then scaling the drops back down to get a more accurate kit, this was in fact suggested to me by Wally at Phoenix (and he knows my water.
However, given the OP's home water profile, he has a wonderful base to work from, so he could just use those numbers to work from and any inaccuracies are unlikely to affect his finished beer.
To pay £35 to confirm his water report once a year, or just once ever seems reasonable to me.

 

[peebee]

If you are referring to my suggestion to use salifert kits and their inaccuracy at low concentrations of Calcium, well you can always scale it up using say 10 times the water and then scaling the drops back down to get a more accurate kit, this was in fact suggested to me by Wally at Phoenix ...

You can. Try to explain how it's done ... then you can earn yourself the reputation I've seemed to have gained of being "confusing". And I wasn't referring to Calcium, it was "Alkalinity". And getting good measurements at such low levels is flippin' difficult ... just ask Wally at Pheonix!

From earlier in this thread ...

... You can consider your water as having zilch in it too and build from there. With one exception ... Alkalinity ...

So, who was being complicated?

I'll spend two minutes with @ChrisD123's water report and my Defuddler ... there:

I haven't even got his water, yet @ChrisD123 has his Alkalinity figure (5.53mg/L as HCO3, or 4.53mg/L as CaCO3). Now how have I done that? Couldn't have been complicated, it only took me two minutes. Couldn't have been Martin's "Bru'n Water" documentation (I do use his calculator). It's vaugly touched on (and explained very badly) by Mr "Simplicity Himself" Palmer in his book (Appendix D ... Don't read it, your head will go into meltdown!). The "Alkalinity" has been calculated, by a decades (centuries) old, simple, formula that home-brewers around here don't appear to be interested in. Not complicated enough for them!

BTW: The actual "Alkalinity" at the tap will be less than that 4.5mg/L as CaCO3 (that Bicarbonate figure divided by 1.22), for reasons no-one seemed to be able to explain to me, on this or other forums including the American "Homebrew Talk" that Mr Brungard frequents. I utilise a kludge, though in this case it makes no significant difference (at zero mg/L "Alkalinity" the Calcium level will still be 3.4 mg/L ... Now that is complicated!!!). (The "Defuddler" can tell me though, 'cos I know where to look ... and you don't need to know!). Seems my comment "With one exception ... Alkalinity" was un-necessary too!

 

[MashBag]

I have found, in many cases AMS & DWB fix the water, well enough.

Does the defuddler go further?

 

[Galena]

Does the defuddler go further?

Please don't encourage him he's already hijacked the thread

 

[peebee]

Please don't encourage him he's already hijacked the thread

Who? Me? Ask @ChrisD123 if I've hijacked his thread.

And, if no-one noticed, I never promoted my "Defuddler" prior to post #12! I'd even said my own spreadsheet was of limited value in this case and a (quote) "'suck it and see' approach might be good". Which was followed by @foxy and @Galena misguidedly advertising the prattling of John Palmer. Which @ChrisD123 obviously doesn't need, but @foxy and @Galena seem intent on cramming down his throat.

Just who was it complicating this thread? It certainly wasn't me!

What I suggest is @foxy and @Galena download a copy of my "Defuddler" and carefully read its narrative. Their own water knowledge should improve no-end. And they should then both get in touch with @ChrisD123 and apologise for misleading him.

No need for apologising to me: I'm quite capable of tearing pounds of flesh off wherever due (and I do not hold grudges afterwards).

I have found, in many cases AMS & DWB fix the water, well enough.

Does the defuddler go further?

Not done any AWS/DWB stuff with it yet. Working up to it. But look at @ChrisD123's profile: You wouldn't go within 100 miles of that with "AWS"! (Alkalinity of 4.5mg/L as CaCO3).