Significant over attenuation!

[starseeker]

It's an SS Brew Bucket (without the yeast dumping valve). The tap is very small and doesn't have a hex bolt. I've tried to remove the teflon ring but it wont budge. As you can see, there is some discolouration of the teflon which doesnt give me confidence that it is entirely sanitary which is why I bake it before each brew. I would love to replace the part with something better but have not been able to find anything of this size.

View attachment 88248

You could also drop this into a pan of boiling water

 

[Clarence]

@Clarence The problem is the beer has not turn out as the brewer wanted. It is almost certainly caused by some sort of contamination.

Woolly thinking doesn't help. The beer hasn't turned out as expected. Whether the result is "wanted" we don't know. The brewer hasn't packaged or conditioned, let alone tried it yet. Is the second assertion a consequence of the first? Why is contamination almost certain? You say almost; what other causes might there be?

 

[BassoonBrew]

Did you say you'd used Belle Saison? I regularly get over 90% attenuation with that yeast.

 

[DarrenSL]

Did you say you'd used Belle Saison? I regularly get over 90% attenuation with that yeast.

No, it was BRY97. I've never used a saison yeast with this equipment.

Also, tried it for the first time last night (at 3 weeks). It just tastes horribly dank with no hop flavour at all and a dull murky appearance. There's no tartness or sourness but it is undrinkable and will be going down the drain. It has also given me a terrible headache after only 2 glasses.

So in conclusion, its clearly infected.

 

[Mooney brew]

No, it was BRY97. I've never used a saison yeast with this equipment.

Also, tried it for the first time last night (at 3 weeks). It just tastes horribly dank with no hop flavour at all and a dull murky appearance. There's no tartness or sourness but it is undrinkable and will be going down the drain. It has also given me a terrible headache after only 2 glasses.

So in conclusion, its clearly infected.

What equipment were you reading the fg on?
I’ve recently been using West Yorkshire yeast to make best bitters and I use a tilt 2 hydrometer.
This yeast gets a huge krausen that sticks around and gets all over my tilt.
It makes my numbers unreliable and shows very low sg.


Maybe before you throw the batch put some in a few bottles and leave it a month and try one.

I’ve had funky beers turn out better doing this a few times. Plus it will give the yeast time to clean up the nasties that are giving you a headache maybe?

 

[Clarence]

No, it was BRY97. I've never used a saison yeast with this equipment.

Also, tried it for the first time last night (at 3 weeks). It just tastes horribly dank with no hop flavour at all and a dull murky appearance. There's no tartness or sourness but it is undrinkable and will be going down the drain. It has also given me a terrible headache after only 2 glasses.

So in conclusion, its clearly infected.

It doesn't sound too good. I've had beers like that when they've fermented at far too warm a temperature, but BRY97 is a bit more forgiving than many yeasts. If you're convinced it's infected, you need to track down the source. I should still trust the fermenter cleaning regime and the idea that you need to strip down taps that are made of a highly heat conducting material that has been baked (presumably at over 100C) for 30 minutes is, frankly ridiculous. Some here would propose subjecting your kit to a strong gamma source if it were available! So, if it is infected what opportunities were there for contamination? Reassembly, transfer from the kettle, at pitching time, removing the lid for observation? How do you collect your SG test samples?
Back to the subject of wort fermentability, this is worth a read:
V=All About Attenuation
especially this part:
At Escarpment Labs (and most yeast producers), the yeast products come with a stated attenuation range. In general, the range tends to be plus or minus 5% from the average attenuation observed in the average wort. This means that a strain with an average attenuation of 75% in the lab will typically be sold with a stated range of 70-80%. It doesn't mean that this yeast will only attenuate between 70-80%. Mashing and yeast health can influence attenuation below or above this range.
Your BRY97 has an attenuation range up to 84% (86% is we go plus or minus 5%) and so your observed attenuation is by no means out of the question.
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/TDS_LPS_BREWINGYEAST_BRY97_ENG_A4.pdf

 

[Sadfield]

Over attenuation, off flavours, fusel alcohols, haze. Sure signs of contamination, which is a sign that sanitation has failed, unfortunately.

The attenuation range of BRY-97 is 78-84%. 95% is 14% of the mean of 81%. If there's anything ridiculous, it's the notion that an extra 30 minutes mash on top of the OP's modus operandi has caused this.

I have had this same problem a number of times when brewing pale ales and IPAs.

What where the mash times in these instances?

 

[DarrenSL]

Thanks again both. Previous mash times have been 1hr but with long sparging times and time before the boil starts. The low attenuation is likely a combination of both high fermentability and infection. The sparging and mash temperature I can fix easily enough but I am at a complete loss as to how I keep getting this infection. Like I said earlier, I've brewed dozens of lagers (fermented @12C and below) and never had a problem. I've also brewed an NEIPA recently and it was perfect, and yet with simple US pale ale/ipas I've had this issue several times in the past.

I've no idea what I can do with the sanitation of the equipment as I've tried just about everything (boiling, baking, steaming, peracetic acid, caustic, acid ...). I do boil outside and in this weather there is always a risk of flies and midges falling into the wort. I mitigate this by covering the kettle with cling film shortly after the chilling starts at around 80C (DMS has never been a problem so I'm happy doing this). After which I bring the wort inside and run straight into the fermenter from height through a sanitised sieve (baked 160C for 30 mins) to aerate and remove debris. Yeast is pitched and its sealed and not looked at again for 2 weeks. I dont do samples, just transfer to a keg and take a hydrometer reading at the time (and discard).

I will buy new a tap and seal for the fermenter and skip the sieve next time and see how I get on. If I still have a problem then I'll have to put it down to the environment and look for somewhere else to brew!

The only other thing that comes into contact with the wort is the chiller (home made copper coil) but I even sanitise that by wiping down with neat chem-san to remove the oxide, as well as boiling in the wort for 20 minutes.

 

[DarrenSL]

What equipment were you reading the fg on?
I’ve recently been using West Yorkshire yeast to make best bitters and I use a tilt 2 hydrometer.
This yeast gets a huge krausen that sticks around and gets all over my tilt.
It makes my numbers unreliable and shows very low sg.


Maybe before you throw the batch put some in a few bottles and leave it a month and try one.

I’ve had funky beers turn out better doing this a few times. Plus it will give the yeast time to clean up the nasties that are giving you a headache maybe?

Thanks Mooneybrew. I just use a (calibrated) hyrdrometer and sample cylinder.

I would like to believe that it will get better with age but I'm pretty sure this one's only fit for the drain.

 

[Sadfield]

Do you recirculate hot wort through the kettle tap before chilling?

Do you store grain anywhere near where you ferment or store your cold side equipment?

How long a sparge? What sort of time frame between the end of the mash and reaching boiling?

 

[Clarence]

Thanks again both. Previous mash times have been 1hr but with long sparging times and time before the boil starts. The low attenuation is likely a combination of both high fermentability and infection. The sparging and mash temperature I can fix easily enough but I am at a complete loss as to how I keep getting this infection. Like I said earlier, I've brewed dozens of lagers (fermented @12C and below) and never had a problem. I've also brewed an NEIPA recently and it was perfect, and yet with simple US pale ale/ipas I've had this issue several times in the past.

Your chiller should be fine if it had been immersed in boiling wort for 20 mins.
Are you telling us that you brew an IPA or a pale and it goes wrong and then you brew lager in the same kit and it's OK until you brew another IPA or pale and then it goes wrong again then the next beer is OK provided it's not an IPA or a US pale?
If so, is there a common element to the IPAs that is different to the successful beers? Are you using the same packet of hops, for example? Oh, dry hoping will also give you some hop creep which will increase attenuation by a few points.
Here's a shot in the dark and a lesson I've learnt: to save money. I bought a 500 of Galaxy for a hoppy beer. I took what I needed, sealed the rest with tape, put them in a zip bag and stored them in the fridge (not freezer) the next time I used them the beer wasnt quite right. The last time I used them the beer was dank and astringent and got thrown away. This was entirely due to deterioration of the hops in storage, which I also threw away. The lesson I learnt was to buy smaller packs of hops and try to use them all in a recipe and if not then freeze them. I wonder if something like that is spoiling your IPAs.

 

[DarrenSL]

Thanks again. It's all fresh ingredients and yes, the lager and ipa brewing is intermittent and with the same equipment. I know, it doesn't make any sense! It can only be because the low temperature in the fermenting and storage of lager. Although, I also brew a hefeweizen that usually comes out good (although that's got strong flavours and is consumed 2-3 weeks after fermentation)

I dont recirculate hot wort through the tap although I do strip and sanitise before using. And it's about an hour and a bit between starting the sparge and getting to boiling.

The other option is, I just stick to brewing lagers!

 

[DarrenSL]

Worth adding that all my beers tend to under attenuate, but never as low as 1.003! It's something that I will be addressing on my next brew.

 

[Clarence]

I also brew a hefeweizen that usually comes out good (although that's got strong flavours and is consumed 2-3 weeks after fermentation)

What yeast do you use for your hefeweizen?

 

[Pennine]

Just to chime in, I doubt it's diastaticus. That usually takes 3-4 weeks to really show up and usually you wont sense it in the fermenter but after it's bottled and kept warm for a couple weeks. Sounds like you might be dealing with something else if you have phenolics.

 

[Pennine]

I may lean towards a bad yeast packet as your cleaning regime seems adequate. But yeah clean everything excessively including your bottles.

 

[Sadfield]

And it's about an hour and a bit between starting the sparge and getting to boiling.

That's no time at all, and debatable that a mash out is even necessary, given that the latter part of that hour the wort will be between 77 and 100°C. Even at 66°C enzymes are denatured as time goes by. Enzyme activity isn't static.

 

[MashBag]

I would like to believe that it will get better with age but I'm pretty sure this one's only fit for the drain.

I might have missed this, but what does it taste like. Taste can tell you a huge amount.

 

[Sadfield]

There's always the option of getting the beer tested. Samples at each stage of a brewday might confirm or pinpoint the issue. Forum members have used these in the past.

https://brewlab.co.uk/analysis-services/

 

[MashBag]

That's an interesting thought. How would a lab test for "what happened to this?"