Serving beer from corni keg with a hand pull

[John Holgreaves]

I am looking to serve my beer from my kegorater using a hand pull pump. I want to secondary ferment in the keg , using a spunding valve to control the pressure, then connecting the pump to the out post after removing the poppet valve. Has anybody done this , if so I would appreciate any information you can give me.

 

[foxy]

I am looking to serve my beer from my kegorater using a hand pull pump. I want to secondary ferment in the keg , using a spunding valve to control the pressure, then connecting the pump to the out post after removing the poppet valve. Has anybody done this , if so I would appreciate any information you can give me.

I can't see putting a carbed beer through a pump working, it would probably end up a foaming mess. The level of carbonation has to be really low, you will need to connect gas to the gas post and set at one atmosphere pressure to prevent a vacuum.

 

[simon12]

@peebee is the expert on this but from what I remember you can do it using low pressure. Remember you need to use some co2 to get the keg to seal.

 

[John Holgreaves]

It will be conditioned as much as cask beer and pressure will be controlled by the spunding valve. The gas inlet will be bunged with a soft wooden spile, custom made, to allow air in. At the end of the session the keg can then be purged with CO2

 

[marshbrewer]

@peebee is a bit of an expert on this, I believe.

 

[foxy]

It will be conditioned as much as cask beer and pressure will be controlled by the spunding valve. The gas inlet will be bunged with a soft wooden spile, custom made, to allow air in. At the end of the session the keg can then be purged with CO2

What pressure are you capping the keg?

 

[peebee]

Twice mentioned as an "ex-spurt" in the same thread! Probably because I'm at such low pressure? I'll have to up the pressure a bit so I become a "spurt" again.

Anyway. I digress: A bit of pressure is fine, in fact it's essential unless you're a Pub and will see the cask off in just a few days. Too much pressure (>5PSI) and the hand-pump complains like crazy (or most will; creaking, groaning, … well they were never meant to handle fizz) even before they start delivering just loads of foam (which they will). Let me roll out "the treatise" again (on my Google drive, it's too big to post on this site) - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv5tRM-5EQUhZbDNPdmV1bWc.

I recommend variable LPG regulators (such as https://gasproducts.co.uk/50-150-mbar-clesse-propane-gas-regulator-brooder.html); note no infuriating "POL" connector, but you will need BSP-to-JG (or whatever) adaptors. The regulator manages 0.75 to 2 PSI (far lower than "normal" regulators) so no need for "spunding valves" which will probably be too imprecise anyway. And no need for "spiles", purging keg with CO2 (except for initially) or removing poppets from disconnects. I use aquarium bubble counters for "venting".

After filling a keg I will purge and pressure it to 5-10PSI with CO2 to get the lid seated - the pressure soon dissipates into the beer as the priming start generating a bit of pressure too (I prime with 12-15g of sugar per Corny keg). I've just put 2 kegs on pumps last night, one was 3-4PSI and wont be vented as the pressure will drop to 2 PSI in 2-3 days as I drink some, one was 10-13PSI (2 months maturing) and has been vented back to 6-7PSI and will probably get a few hours more venting later today.

There's loads of threads on the subject about the place, most have my interference and pretty piccies in them going back 2-3 years.

 

[The Baron]

All Hail PeeBee

 

[St00]

All Hail PeeBee

King of Pulling By Hand....

Oh, that doesn't sound right!

 

[peebee]

King of Pulling By Hand....

Oh, that doesn't sound right!

No, it doesn't! You are definitely off the Christmas card list. And I wont be "liking" your post either!

Though I must say, I'm not used to compliments. Fending off jibes is far more normal.

All Hail PeeBee

… Hang on. "All hail"? As in "made of ice" … and will melt soon and go away?

Ah. "Normality" resumed!



Apart from hand-pumps, I'm always whinging on about the trend for people shouting "infection" at any hint of anything going awry …

… one was 10-13PSI (2 months maturing) and has been vented back to 6-7PSI and will probably get a few hours more venting later today.

Nope, didn't need it. Pulled off a couple of pints last night and it has only crept back up to 4PSI by this morning (it does "creep" back up, hence venting isn't just "pull the PRV", venting is a s-l-o-w process). Odd that I didn't judge priming well for this one. Odd that is has a dry, crisp green apple flavour to it yet the beer is the same as the excellent one just taken off (I make 40L batches). Odd … hum. INFECTION!!!

 

[beerlad]

I'm a bit late to this thread so you may have already covered this.
I use handpull with corny and have gas regulated going in at just 2 or 3 psi to avoid a vacuum in the corny. I don't have issues with froth at the beer pump as I put in a flat beer (that's how I like it) and only CO2 for preservation and a bit of head. I do however have a demand valve between the pump and the corny because as the pressure rises it forces beer through my handpull when I'm not using it. Demand valve means regardless of pressure I only get beer when I want it.
This allows me to increase or lower psi and not affect beer engine.

 

[LeeH]

Pics of pulled pints?

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi peebee

Odd that I didn't judge priming well for this one. Odd that is has a dry, crisp green apple flavour to it yet the beer is the same as the excellent one just taken off (I make 40L batches). Odd … hum. INFECTION!!!

... while there are some Brett strains that throw apple-like flavours, green apple flavour in beers are more commonly due to acetaldehyde (like diacetyl, produced as a step towards ethanol by the yeast, in fermentation) was this beer fermented separately from the rest of the batch? Or you mention priming, was this stored differently after priming? Either way, if there's still plenty of yeast in the beer, warming it up should get the yeasties to get rid of the apples

Cheers, PhilB

 

[peebee]

Thanks @PhilBrew. I knew I'd heard of "green apple" relating to homebrew for something; now you've told me!

The beer is from the same fermenter. Primed identically (minimally) and I barely cool my hand-pumped beers (14-16C perhaps, the often quoted "cellar temperature" is too cold for me) so no point "warming it up" (it already is!). There appears to have been something in that keg. I'm not sure yet if it's alive and getting worse, but the flavour comes and goes and was at its worst when first tapped: Which is leading me to think its like a problem I had last year - the taint is coming from the extraction hose (I replaced the rigid steel tubes in all my Cornies with flexible hoses and "cask widge" floats). Last year the taint was chlorine (VWP) and finally went away. This year - well my guess so far is something "happened" in the keg when stored away after emptying the previous contents and tainted the hose.

The hose material shouldn't transfer taints, but it certainly did leaving it in contact with steriliser too long last year. Perhaps I need to be even more careful using that type of hose post-pitch, it has already caught me out with its transparency to oxygen as well as transmitting the chlorine taint. And the material? My love of this material is under great suspicion with me at the moment, and its going to upset loads of homebrewers for my mentioning it … silicon!

 

[peebee]

Pics of pulled pints?

Okay. For me (not "pints", I've drunk quite enough for now) …

Half pint glass is the slightly dodgy (acetaldehyde tainted) Fuller's ESB clone (aka "Mynydd Mynyllod ESB"), 6.1% ABV (came out a tad over strength). In the wine glass a "Burton Ale" ( "Nyrs Gron", 5.8% ABV ) based on Graham Wheeler's OP clone (never had much luck with OP clones, this one has splintered off having a higher hop rate - 40IBU - and using pale chocolate malt - still quite roasty flavoured). And finally (champagne glass) a Fuller's 1845 clone (aka "1877", which has more meaning around here) which uses 10% Simpson's amber malt (very important) as well as Simpson's dark crystal malt (10%). The 1877 probably needs another month (had 2) to be at best, the Nyrs Gron is fine after five weeks. The last two use S-33 dried yeast.

Christmas holly courtesy of lonesome bush up the back.

Hold it … the 1877 is 7-8PSI keg, not hand-pump, imposter!

What's that feeling? Could it be any sympathy vote I'd earned (from the acetaldehyde tainted beer) flitting away?

 

[peebee]

… I do however have a demand valve between the pump and the corny because as the pressure rises it forces beer through my handpull when I'm not using it. Demand valve means regardless of pressure I only get beer when I want it.
This allows me to increase or lower psi and not affect beer engine.

Forgive me if I've misread your port, but - putting my newly awarded handpump "expert" hat back on :tinhat: - don't mix up "hydraulics" with "pneumatics". You can't compress a liquid, so as soon as the demand valve cracks, the handpump is subject to the pressure in the keg (less any friction losses on route). So the demand valve doesn't protect the handpump from over-pressured beer. But it does stop pressure pushing beer through the pump and on to the floor. So I also recommend demand valves . Air in the pump (which will compress) is probable responsible for the banging and juddering of the pump ("water hammer"?). But as I had said, some pumps are immune, and that quite possibly means pumps of the same model too.

 

[foxy]

It was DennisKing who helped me set up my beer engines, whatever happened to him doesn't seem to frequent this forum anymore.

 

[F00b4r]

It was DennisKing who helped me set up my beer engines, whatever happened to him doesn't seem to frequent this forum anymore.

He is still around on Jim’s and still making good beer