Selling home brew

[scott78]

the 7000L duty relief on cider was due to the thought that any duty payment would force the closure of many small cider farms, its set at 7000L as it was just enough volume to get by on the income.
to register with HMRC is the easy bit, if selling to the public you will need an alcohol licence, food inspection, council register, insurance,thats just the main issues. if you only sell direct to pubs you can do without the alcohol licence.
not as easy as rocking up to a farmers market and selling.

 

[Gayle]

Well then it seems as easy as setting up a cake stall! Which I am hoping to do in the coming year, once I can get through food registration and council inspections, insurance etc.

Wait, I'm confused, an alcohol license is required even if registration with HMRC is not? I'm not planning on selling my cider (because the effort would hardly be worth it) but would like to be clear on the law.

Thanks to the OP for this thread, many people really don't know much of the law on alcohol - since beginning homebrewing friends have questioned me on whether what I was doing is legal, while others have asked me to sell to them and been surprised when I say it's not legal to do so.

 

[wezil]

Yes I also believe it is something to do with protecting orchards and the varieties of apple that they contain, thus giving 'small' scale producers a bit of a helping hand (any way got to go, im off scrumping) Anyone care to guess how many tons of apples you'd need (iv'e got a trailer for my pushbike)! :lol:

 

[scott78]

you have to register with HMRC to clear the issure of alcohol duty. you then need an alcohol sales licence to sell to the public. the first is free, the secont is ~£150 one day training+ council register £45+ CRB check £25.

 

[calumscott]

I was half thinking the same as I know you can sell cider upto 70 hectolitres (1,540 UK gallons) but was pretty sure beer and wine are a different kettle of fish ...
Is it true that you cant even give the wine away to a family friend?? did not know that :nono:

I imagine the food hygiene peeps would be interested in the setup if cider was sold, even though licensing etc isn't required

Re giving stuff away, "domestic use" sounds bit of a hazy area. Is there anything specific in the legislation, or any case law?

Wine and cider is different, it's covered by different wording. It's only illegal to sell it without a licence (where required for lots of cider) or without paying the duty.

Beer is non-duty-paid when brewed for domestic use. If they meant consumption they would have been restrictive and said consumption. Lets face it, when have you ever known them to be more lenient than they meant to be?

So domestic use it is, and that is domestic use of beer as in what ever you would do with beer that you buy from the shop. It is well outwith the bounds of sanity for HMRC to come knocking because you took a half dozen beers to Jim's house and shared them while you watched the footy.

 

[wezil]

Goverment department-sanity? not two words i'd put together! :rofl: but your probably right, at least not until their mates in the brewing industry start losing big money to us homebrewers because the tax on alcohol is to expensive!!!

 

[Brewbob]

Isn't it because cider and beer have traditionally been taxed differently as cider is a fruit product and beer is grain product... Thats why cider houses have always been cheaper, and cider stronger.

Anyway from an innocuous question an interesting debate..

 

[kev]

Maybe it's because I work for a brewery, but I don't find it an innocuous question at all.

It's ridiculous. Brew beer at home then sell it? Mental.

K

 

[ScottM]

Maybe it's because I work for a brewery, but I don't find it an innocuous question at all.

It's ridiculous. Brew beer at home then sell it? Mental.

K

Yeah that sums it up for me. It's a good debate and very interesting to know the standpoint with the law etc, but surely the law is there to protect the hard working official brewers & breweries as much as it is the consumers (quality control etc).

I wouldn't consider selling any of my brews. I happily share what I've made with friends/family either when they are visiting myself or I am visiting them (taking my carryout etc). If a friend wanted me to make them a batch, if they would supply the ingredients or money for the ingredients, if I was willing and able, I would.... for nothing else than to show off my hobby and my creation. How the law sees that is debatable but I don't think I'd have anyone banging down my door, morally I would be sleeping soundly.

Brewing my own hooch to sell under the radar and taking potential sales away from legitimate companies who pay employees with famalies, mortgages, lives etc etc... is a line I would never cross.

I honestly don't see the level that most people are at as being worth going into "manufacture". Obviously there is a big step between homebrewing and micro brewing, but if the drive is there then I dare say the market is there for them if the product and price is right :)

 

[alawlor66430]

Sorry kev but it was an innocuous question, as it was after all, a question!
The search for an answer I did not know, at no point did I express interest in doing this nor did I insinuate it should be allowed, everyone has a right to an opinion but when my question is called ridiculous and mental then maybe I need to clarify my standpoint, I have not looked into the subject enough to have definitive opinions on it but I can tell you that the fact it's against the law is enough for me, laws are in place for a reason and no man should question them for his own gain.
Hopefully this thread will give the answers to anyone on here who also wandered about this subject and also it's proving to be a bit of an insight into the laws surrounding production and distribution which I'm finding quite fascinating as are many other people judging by the posts

Adam

 

[calumscott]

Yeah that sums it up for me. It's a good debate and very interesting to know the standpoint with the law etc, but surely the law is there to protect the hard working official brewers & breweries as much as it is the consumers (quality control etc).

In a round about way maybe. Primarily they are there to protect the flow of revenue to The Revenue! As a secondary benefit, the policing of that means that licenced brewers/producers are known and can be monitored for quality etc. and have some degree of market protection through the licencing system itself.

It's ridiculous. Brew beer at home then sell it? Mental.

That it is. The risks to the producer of litigation from any number of angles from food safety to local planning and more, the onerous licencing obligation, not to mention that which really needs a "special" kind of attitude to bridge the gulf - the fact that people might just not "get" your produce and publicly slate that of which you are so proud...

...you'd need big cahones for that.

at no point did I express interest in doing this

To be fair Adam, you kind of did when you suggested why it would be of interest but in the end, well, that's one of the things that we're here for. To help brewers steer clear of potentially life-changing mistakes.

The law, or rather the legislation, around the sale of alcohol and the duty structure is really interesting and as you read and learn more about the history of certain brewed (and d*******d) products you see where the nuances come from like why the wording for cider and wine Vs beer differs etc.

I did think about an essay on the laws affecting home brewers but I don't have time to do it justice (see what I did there?) at the moment...

 

[alawlor66430]

Apologies if my post lead anyone to believe that I intended to do this, my only interest was in finding out the laws surrounding this, from what I'm learning on this thread the laws are like an ice berg in the sense that the bit poking out of the water is what most of us generally know, and under the surface they are huge and complex, but on a lighter note my first grains and hops arrived today so I'm pretty happy about that :-)

 

[calumscott]

Apologies if my post lead anyone to believe that I intended to do this, my only interest was in finding out the laws surrounding this, from what I'm learning on this thread the laws are like an ice berg in the sense that the bit poking out of the water is what most of us generally know, and under the surface they are huge and complex, but on a lighter note my first grains and hops arrived today so I'm pretty happy about that :-)

No apologies needed! Most people think that you can't sell homebrew and for the large part that's true. But there are a good few on here who have crossed the divide from amateur to professional on some level from 1Bbl brews for festivals to "robbarwell" who has just made a brilliant leap into "piggy-back" brewing under his own name with a local brewery doing regular 4Bbl brews.

It can be done, but there is a hell of a lot to consider and a hell of a lot of paperwork and law, which is why when you scratch the surface you tend to go "Illegal, don't go there". And that actually is the application that applies to the majority of us.

There's no harm in asking questions - how else are you supposed to learn. :thumb:

 

[Springer]

There's no harm in asking questions - how else are you supposed to learn. :thumb:

Quite right Calum. :thumb:
Kev has been cross with this thread from the start. :) come on kev, play nicely :lol:
You have to t make quite a lot of beer to make it worthwhile going pro, to many hurdles. Anyone still fancy it suggest you get the Micro Brewers Handbook, for less than a tenner, might even sell you mine. :lol:
S

 

[critch]

Maybe it's because I work for a brewery, but I don't find it an innocuous question at all.

It's ridiculous. Brew beer at home then sell it? Mental.

K

ive known a few breweries that do exactly that kev.


ramsbottom(200l), prospect(5bbl), and the much missed W.C. brewery(10 gallons!) to name but three

 

[theboytony]

Maybe it's because I work for a brewery, but I don't find it an innocuous question at all.

It's ridiculous. Brew beer at home then sell it? Mental.

K

ive known a few breweries that do exactly that kev.


ramsbottom(200l), prospect(5bbl), and the much missed W.C. brewery(10 gallons!) to name but three

There is a 1bbl just up the road from me opposite my daughters school that is run from the blokes house

Edit : just checked it out and its actually 2bbl. I think its only a part time thing because he works for Yorkshire water as well.

 

[graysalchemy]

kev wrote:

It's ridiculous. Brew beer at home then sell it? Mental.

From a commercial point of view it probably is mental, to have to go through all the red tape and the financial commitment to produce just a barrels of beer a year.

However as home brewers we do not have the commercial and financial constraints that any business has so we can afford to hop our beer to the extreme without worrying how many percentage points of profit you have lost, or maturing it for 6 months without taking up valuable space in the brewery.

If micro breweries could have the freedom from financial constraint then we would have so much more better beer to drink than the middle of the road dross which comes out of a lot of micro's. Unfortunately in the real world that will never happen, unless someone sets up a not for profit brewery :lol: :lol:

 

[EskiBrew]

I think enough has been said on the concept of selling homebrew :nono:

The bit I am unsure about here is the term "domestic use". I was under the impression the term specified was "personal use". Can anyone confirm either way?

Let's consider a couple of examples:

If it's defined as domestic use:
1) Giving a few beers to a few visiting friends at a BBQ - falls within domestic use.
2) Giving a keg to your best mate for guests to drink at his wedding - presumably still domestic use since no money is involved.

If it's defined as personal use:
1) Giving a few beers to a few visiting friends at a BBQ - technically not personal use but probably too much hassle for anyone to worry about either way.
2) Giving a keg to your best mate for guests to drink at his wedding - definitely not personal use and probably a step too far.

So what is it? personal or domestic or are they effectively the same thing in the eyes of the law?

 

[bobsbeer]

Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979

[47 Registration of producers of beer.

(1)A person who produces beer on any premises in the United Kingdom must be registered with the Commissioners under this section in respect of those premises; and in this Act “registered brewer” means a person registered under this section in respect of any premises.
(2)A person who produces beer on any premises shall not be required to be registered under this section in respect of those premises if the beer is produced solely for his own domestic use or solely for the purposes of research or experiments in the production of beer.

I would interpret this to mean for consumption in your own home or other place

Unless a law states a definition then the meaning would be an ordinary dictionary definition:

Oxford Dictionary:

Definition of domestic
adjective
relating to the running of a home or to family relations:
domestic chores
domestic violence
of or for use in the home rather than in an industrial or office environment:
domestic water supplies
(of an animal) tame and kept by humans:
domestic dogs
(of a person) fond of family life and running a home:
she was not at all domestic

 

[Loetz]

I've been curious about the laws here in Austria. Every Saturday there is a market just across the street from me and there are loads of dudes out there with card tables covered in homemade wines. It seems like it would be so easy for me to set one up of my own and start selling beer. I asked a friend of mine about this because I know that her dad sells cider, and she says that she thinks you have to actually own a farm to be able to do it. She says that her father is registered with the government as having an apple orchard, so he gets to sell his stuff.

I still haven't given up on the idea. Once I have a consistent product that I'm proud of, I'm going to look into this in more detail.