secondary fv ???

[Mr BR]

was just thinking about when you rack to secondary fv and cool for the yeast to drop out further is this not a waste of time if you batch prime from secondary fv as you need to stir in your priming sugar which would kick up the sedement anyway or would you need to rack to a third fv before priming :wha:

 

[RobWalker]

If you want to batch prime yeah, it'll kick up the sediment - but you can always rack to a bottling bucket before bottling if you want to free up your primary FV.

I don't see the point either, but a lot of people do it for fruit additions and ageing. I personally wouldn't bother otherwise, you've gotta avoid the trub in bottles either way anyway so i'd just clear most or all of the way in primary then transfer, immediately prime and bottle.

 

[artiums_enteri]

Racking to secondary is considered an old and outdated process.

If you want to cold crash the beer, you can do so in primary then just rack off the trub.

The reason secondary was thought to be useful and needed was because it was believed the yeast would start cannibalizing in the fermenter if left too long creating a bready or meaty flavor. Studies show that it takes months for this to occur. By racking to secondary you run the risk of oxidation and contamination. It's safer just to leave the beer in primary until you are ready to bottle.

The exception is if you are truly doing a secondary fermentation where you are adding fruit, another yeast strain, or dry hopping. Particular care should be taken while racking as to not splash and introduce O2, and of course everything needs to be sanitized.


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[Heyzy]

So if using a secondry FV is outdated was is the best way? As a newby i dont want to cause oxidisation but i thought you went to a second FV to get rid of alot of the **** before bottling. Is it best to go from primary straight to bottling bucket and batch priming from there? Hope this makes sense.

 

[Vossy1]

It's never a good idea to leave the beer in primary for too long, nothing to do with cannibalizing though. If left too long, or too warm, the spent yeast cells will start to decay (autolysis) and it's that process which will give 'off' flavours to your beer. Some call it 'yeast bite' though definition varies here and in the USA, see here

So if using a secondry FV is outdated was is the best way?

Secondary on the whole isn't needed but for some yeasts/beers it's essential.
It really depends on the yeast you use and the tools available to you. If you use a yeast that settles quickly you should be able to rack off directly to barrel/bottling bucket after 10-14 days. If you use a yeast which doesn't flocculate so well a stint secondary may well be advised. You can speed up the process of yeast settling by cooling the brew to say 5 deg c for a few days, though this isn't always an option for some.
However you decide to do it it's best not to keep the beer in the primary for more than 14 days and if it's warm possibly less.

EDIT, oxidation should only occur if you splash the beer on transfer to the secondary, if you transfer carefully oxidation won't be a problem.

 

[Heyzy]

Right i understand now, im just using lager kits at the moment and will be for the near future. I will just go straight into bottling bucket to prime and then straight into bottles. Think i going to try the european lager next so will see how that goes with the proper lager yeast and low fermenting temps

 

[phettebs]

I still secondary all of my big beers. If I'm aging something for even a couple months (post primary fermentation) I'll secondary it. But for bitters and APAs, I just cold crash the primary and go straight to the keg.

I can also say that I've left a beer in the primary for almost 2 months and it was fine. No obvious signs of autolysis. However, I would say that is not something I do routinely and has only happened a couple of times simply because I was too busy to get back to the beer.

 

[shearclass]

EDIT, oxidation should only occur if you splash the beer on transfer to the secondary, if you transfer carefully oxidation won't be a problem.

Hi

What about the fact that there will be a large surface area of beer exposed to oxygen in the second FV? I thought that would cause oxidation?

Cheers

 

[phettebs]

I can't say that I've seen it be a problem in my carboys. Also, you still have a certain amount of CO2 coming out of solution and forming a protective blanket over the top of the beer. Certainly not like the volumes you see in the primary, but still some. I understand your concern. I just have not seen it be a problem in my experience and I've secondaried a lot of beers.

 

[jonnymorris]

I just cold crash the primary and go straight to the keg.

If you cold crash the primary to clear the brew prior to kegging do you then warm it up for few days when it's in the keg before cooling once more to condition?

 

[Vossy1]

I can also say that I've left a beer in the primary for almost 2 months and it was fine.

Best to qualify if you have temperature control on the fv's/stable temps, a lot of folk don't.

What about the fact that there will be a large surface area of beer exposed to oxygen in the second FV? I thought that would cause oxidation?

Naturally it's always best to minimise the 'head space' in the secondary. The yeast hasn't finished fermenting out at this stage and can handle some O2, it will also still be producing some C02, and being heavier than air/O2, this will settle over the beer protecting it from oxygen, as phettebs has said.
Best practice would be to purge a vent a few times with C02 but this option isn't always available to some folk.

If you cold crash the primary to clear the brew prior to kegging do you then warm it up for few days when it's in the keg before cooling once more to condition?

To speed things up, yes.

 

[phettebs]

I just cold crash the primary and go straight to the keg.

If you cold crash the primary to clear the brew prior to kegging do you then warm it up for few days when it's in the keg before cooling once more to condition?

I force carbonate with a CO2 tank so I don't have to worry about conditioning. So no. I pull the FV from the fridge, rack to keg, and then put back in fridge with CO2 attached.

 

[artiums_enteri]

According to the brewing institute at UC Davis and Jamil Zainachef, autolysis takes 4-8 months to take place. Autolysis is yeast cannibalizing as well as creating a hard cell wall and releasing unpleasant flavors into solution. The definition comes from both zymergy and "The Practical Brewer" which is a mediatory text book if you wish to get a brewing/microbiology degree from MBAA.

It used to be thought and taught that autolysis would take place within a month, so it was important to get the beer off the yeast cake as soon as primary fermentation was complete. That theory has been debunked by the UC Davis Brewer's guild as well as experts such as John Palmer, Zainachef, and Gordon Strong.

For prolonged aging of beer, racking to an aging vessel is still recommended, but it's not a secondary fermenter being that no fermentation will take place. The yeast has dropped out of suspension, and no more sugars will be consumed. Unless you add a second yeast strain, there will be no C02 build up in the conditioning vessel, so when moving from primary to secondary it's wise to purge the conditioning vessel with C02, and push the beer from primary to aging using C02. If a secondary fermentation is actually taking place, whereby a yeast strain is consuming additional sugars such as fruit or a lacto or pedio strain is being added then O2 must be present in the secondary fermenter. The sacchramyces will be either filtered out or dropped out using a cold room and gelatin. This is secondary, not conditioning. Conditioning is aging the beer to let more complex flavors meld, dry hops release beta acids for aroma, or a lagering process for clarity. The beer is racked off the yeast, but 80% of the yeast still makes into the conditioning vessel if you are not filtering prior to transferring. Whether you have minimal headspace or not in the conditioning vessel unless you push via C02 from the fermenter to the brite tank you are introducing O2. This is why the experts say to just leave the beer alone unless it's going to be aged for 6 months or more.

If aging and the use of a brite tank is being used, stainless conicals are recommended. They can be pressurized and the yeast run off without disturbing the beer.

It's important to note that one reason autolysis was debunked was because by racking your beer to secondary or removing the yeast slurry from a conical, you remove 20-30% of the dead yeast cells in the beer. 80% are still floating in solution, and won't be removed without the use of a .5 micron filter. 45% can be removed by cold crashing and gelatin, so when grad students and experts realized that they were leaving 45% of these so called harmful yeast in solution with no adverse affects, with the exception of oxidation, they furthered their studies perform research only on the autolysis myth. The same is being done with the hot side aeration theory.




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[phettebs]

The same is being done with the hot side aeration theory.

Now that's one I'd like to read about!

 

[artiums_enteri]

If you go to iTunes and download the Brewing Network's Brew Strong episode there is a full discussion on the topic. Jamil and Palmer dedicated a whole episode to the matter.


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[orlando]

:clap:

According to the brewing institute at UC Davis and Jamil Zainachef, autolysis takes 4-8 months to take place. Autolysis is yeast cannibalizing as well as creating a hard cell wall and releasing unpleasant flavors into solution. The definition comes from both zymergy and "The Practical Brewer" which is a mediatory text book if you wish to get a brewing/microbiology degree from MBAA.

It used to be thought and taught that autolysis would take place within a month, so it was important to get the beer off the yeast cake as soon as primary fermentation was complete. That theory has been debunked by the UC Davis Brewer's guild as well as experts such as John Palmer, Zainachef, and Gordon Strong.

For prolonged aging of beer, racking to an aging vessel is still recommended, but it's not a secondary fermenter being that no fermentation will take place. The yeast has dropped out of suspension, and no more sugars will be consumed. Unless you add a second yeast strain, there will be no C02 build up in the conditioning vessel, so when moving from primary to secondary it's wise to purge the conditioning vessel with C02, and push the beer from primary to aging using C02. If a secondary fermentation is actually taking place, whereby a yeast strain is consuming additional sugars such as fruit or a lacto or pedio strain is being added then O2 must be present in the secondary fermenter. The sacchramyces will be either filtered out or dropped out using a cold room and gelatin. This is secondary, not conditioning. Conditioning is aging the beer to let more complex flavors meld, dry hops release beta acids for aroma, or a lagering process for clarity. The beer is racked off the yeast, but 80% of the yeast still makes into the conditioning vessel if you are not filtering prior to transferring. Whether you have minimal headspace or not in the conditioning vessel unless you push via C02 from the fermenter to the brite tank you are introducing O2. This is why the experts say to just leave the beer alone unless it's going to be aged for 6 months or more.

If aging and the use of a brite tank is being used, stainless conicals are recommended. They can be pressurized and the yeast run off without disturbing the beer.

It's important to note that one reason autolysis was debunked was because by racking your beer to secondary or removing the yeast slurry from a conical, you remove 20-30% of the dead yeast cells in the beer. 80% are still floating in solution, and won't be removed without the use of a .5 micron filter. 45% can be removed by cold crashing and gelatin, so when grad students and experts realized that they were leaving 45% of these so called harmful yeast in solution with no adverse affects, with the exception of oxidation, they furthered their studies perform research only on the autolysis myth. The same is being done with the hot side aeration theory.




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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.497564,-120.853055

Anecdote is interesting, evidence is convincing. Great post, more like this please :clap: