Safale s-04

[Saisonator]

I sometimes wonder if the full palate of yeast manage to survive the drying process?

 

[dad_of_jon]

I've made a dunkel Weizen with dried yeast (M20) and a regular Weizen with liquid yeast. I definitely noticed more yeast character in the liquid yeast.

However this is a miniscule sample size on two similar but different beers. My reasoning is that liquid yeast might be better if the yeast character plays an important role in the beer like in a Weizen.

But as I said, small sample size. I'm planning another Weizen soon with the same recipe, so I might try a dry yeast for that one. Any suggestions on a good Bavarian wheat dry yeast?

If you didnt rate the m20 try lallemand weizen, I like the m20 and fermented at the top of its range :thumb:

 

[svenito]

If you didnt rate the m20 try lallemand weizen, I like the m20 and fermented at the top of its range :thumb:

Maybe I'll give it another go then. Are you talking around 21c?

 

[Sadfield]

I sometimes wonder if the full palate of yeast manage to survive the drying process?

Or the drying process could be selective and only the strong survive? Any perceived enhancement of flavour in liquid yeast could be off flavours from weaklings. It is single celled organisms we are dealing with. A cell count and viability comparison between correctly rehydrated dry yeast and a vial of liquid that has been shipped from America, would be interesting.

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[AdeDunn]

Maybe I'll give it another go then. Are you talking around 21c?

lol Going by the product description for M20, you're about 9 degrees too cool there bud. Range is 18 - 30 degrees C for M20.

Ramp those temps up if you want more flavour from dried yeasts. :thumb1:

I've only use dried yeasts so far. Mostly been happy with these, but I find there are too many yeasts NOT available dry that I want to try. Take wheat beer yeasts as an example, the dried ones all seem to be about banana flavours. If you want a different flavour profile you have to look to liquid yeasts from what I can see. Same with Saison yeasts, with dried yeast been dominated by "French Saison" yeasts that seem to produce a nice fruity, slightly tart, flavour, rather than dry and spicy. Still delicious, but the reason I want to try liquid yeasts too is to widen the variety of flavours I can produce.

I can produce some delicious (well, we reckon they are anyway) beers for sure with dried, and could happily live my life only using dried yeasts. However, there is so much more variety available in liquid form, and for me, personally, my beer making is about experimenting with flavours.

Just to add spice to the pot of discussion though, I read something recently suggesting that for ester driven styles the reason liquids produce more flavour is that folks tend to under-pitch them, where dried yeasts have a much higher cell count. This stresses the yeast a little, and so they produce more esters/phenolics than the dried (which has a higher cell count). Given I have read on here too that Belgian styles you should under-pitch, and how most folks using dried yeast will just chuck the whole packet in, suggests to me that this may well be true, and at least partly explain the "better" results some obtain with liquid yeast?

 

[Saisonator]

lol Going by the product description for M20, you're about 9 degrees too cool there bud. Range is 18 - 30 degrees C for M20.

Ramp those temps up if you want more flavour from dried yeasts. :thumb1:

I've only use dried yeasts so far. Mostly been happy with these, but I find there are too many yeasts NOT available dry that I want to try. Take wheat beer yeasts as an example, the dried ones all seem to be about banana flavours. If you want a different flavour profile you have to look to liquid yeasts from what I can see. Same with Saison yeasts, with dried yeast been dominated by "French Saison" yeasts that seem to produce a nice fruity, slightly tart, flavour, rather than dry and spicy. Still delicious, but the reason I want to try liquid yeasts too is to widen the variety of flavours I can produce.

I can produce some delicious (well, we reckon they are anyway) beers for sure with dried, and could happily live my life only using dried yeasts. However, there is so much more variety available in liquid form, and for me, personally, my beer making is about experimenting with flavours.

Just to add spice to the pot of discussion though, I read something recently suggesting that for ester driven styles the reason liquids produce more flavour is that folks tend to under-pitch them, where dried yeasts have a much higher cell count. This stresses the yeast a little, and so they produce more esters/phenolics than the dried (which has a higher cell count). Given I have read on here too that Belgian styles you should under-pitch, and how most folks using dried yeast will just chuck the whole packet in, suggests to me that this may well be true, and at least partly explain the "better" results some obtain with liquid yeast?

I think stressing the yeast works with some beers but not others. Wheat beers being the most common, some also avoid oxygenating the wort as well to add more stress and so more esters.
I don't think it would be good practice for the average ale.

 

[MickDundee]

If you didnt rate the m20 try lallemand weizen, I like the m20 and fermented at the top of its range :thumb:

Good to know you like M20. I usually make American pales/IPAs, California Common, and the occasional English Ale so generally stick with US-05/M44/M54/M36/CML but I also had good results with MJ Belgian Abbey.

It’s more convenient to for me to use dry yeast because I never actually know when I’m going to be able to fit a brew day in so can’t really be making starters 2 days in advance. I have used liquid in the past I just find it doesn’t suit last minute brewdays!

I’m planning a hefe in a month or so. Since it hardly needs any hops it’s dead cheap so was going to add a liquid yeast and actually plan the brewday. If I know M20 is decent I might go with that as a first go, and it’ll give me a sub £9 brew!

 

[svenito]

Whilst stressing wheat strains will produce different profiles, don't deny the yeast all the things, otherwise they'll go on strike.

Was on mobile so didn't see the M20 data sheet, but seems like I'll be exercising my heat bar in the fermentation chamber a bit then if I'm fermenting in the upper 20s. Nice.

I can see some merit in the liquid yeast being more stressed, but then again most people do make starters for the liquid yeast, whereas dried is usually pitched straight from the packet (rehydrated if they are lucky). I'll certainly give M20 another go and compare it to the liquid yeast I used and report back.

@MickDundee I've just done a batch with liquid yeast, made the starter, decanted it into sealed jars and put it in the fridge for a week or two. No problems with it, so if you want to try liquid, that would be one way to go. Take it out of the fridge on the morning of the brew day and pitch it into slightly warmer wort.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!

Can't understand why we're getting several Brian Blessed clones on the forum lately, the ones with the only opinion that is gospel.

Eh? I just see people with different opinions, what's wrong with that?

I agree with you, @Saisonator, but to play devil's advocate, can you really expect a balanced viewpoint on the merits of a particular dried yeast from someone who signs themselves Keep yeast live?
I doubt that golden angels sweeping down from heaven on a crystal chariot borne on stormclouds would ever convince @trueblue to say anything good about dried yeast.
Bottom line: if it's good for me, then it's good for me.

 

[foxbat]

Just to add spice to the pot of discussion though, I read something recently suggesting that for ester driven styles the reason liquids produce more flavour is that folks tend to under-pitch them

The liquid yeast manufacturers are complicit in this practice as they try to make their products look as easy to use as a dry pack. An example quote from Wyeast's own website.

Activator™ packages are designed for direct inoculation of 5 gallons (19 L) of standard gravity ale wort.

Nowhere does it mention age consideration. Starters are mentioned, but only in the context of lagers and high gravity ales. Is it still OK to direct pitch a 6 month old pack vs. a 1 week pack and expect the same results? I think not.

 

[AdeDunn]

Ok, I should probably clarify my thoughts a little. Seems to me that if you are using a liquid yeast, you're probably happy to put (now please don't get upset with me saying this) more effort into getting the yeast just right. Working out how big a starter to make, how many cells to aim for, etc etc. So your pitching rate is more likely to be adjusted to suit the style you are making, ie. Belgian you may underpitch a little, British you'll pitch properly, etc etc. Where using a dried yeast, I think most of us rehydrate the entire packet and tip it in, or in some cases just open and sprinkle it on dry (not I! lol). We don't even stop to think how many cells are going to come from that packet. Now my understanding is that a decent dried yeast isn't going to contain a heck of a lot of viable cells, hence you don't use a starter, so you're definitely not going to be under-pitching with most of them (apart from a couple of infamous examples where you get about a 6g packet... lmao). So, like some other folks, I suspect that this is possibly PART (and only part) of the reason that for some styles you get more flavours produced with the liquid yeast. It's not about the quality entirely, but rather about pitching the wrong number of cells to begin with.

I love dried yeasts, they for the most part do a great job of producing delicious beer! Obviously I prefer some brands over others, and your mileage will vary. I'm also keen to give liquid yeasts a try though, partly because of the much larger variety offered. I believe that both have an equal place in brewing, horses for courses. I mean, is there really a need to faff around with liquid when making a hop driven style, when you can get a dried yeast that's just as neutral and drops out nicely? Where, as again others have said, if you are brewing a very yeast driven style (which I actually seem to do a lot of), you might get slightly superior results with a liquid, and certainly have more choice as the yeast flavour profiles you can get.

I'm actually singularly unimpressed with the massively hopped US styles though to be honest, hence my brews are anything but. So for me the yeast is a larger factor, I can't disguise anything I don't like from the yeast with a massive dry hop. :thumb1: Hence the hoppiest beers I have produced so far have been my Saisons, and the Hobgoblin Gold clone I have resting in primary waiting to be bottled. :smile6: All made with dry yeast, as I don't have the kit I want for messing with starters just yet.

 

[Sadfield]

Totally. A conscientious brewer will pitch the correct amount of yeast to achieve their aim, regardless of dry or liquid. They're also likely to know that dry yeast is dormant, not dead. A state yeast has been comfortable with, long before humans invented beer.

As a side note, in Jeff Alworths book Secrets of the Master Brewer, John Keeling (Fullers) tip for brewing British Ales of sublime character, is to pitch more than one strain, and not necessarily both of British origin.



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[Gunge]

As a side note, in Jeff Alworths book Secrets of the Master Brewer, John Keeling (Fullers) tip for brewing British Ales of sublime character, is to pitch more than one strain, and not necessarily both of British origin.

This is good news! My next brew will be made up of a proper mish-mash of ingredients, to use up what I have before ordering new stocks. I'd already planned on chucking a pack of CML Belgian and a pack of CML Real Ale in. No idea what I'm aiming for or what to expect but that's the fun of it. If it ain't the best beer in the history of the world evah, it'll still go down the hatch and get me a wobble on.

 

[Bigcol49]

If it ain't the best beer in the history of the world evah, it'll still go down the hatch and get me a wobble on.

Hi!
Many mistakes are made in the brewhouse, but we drink them all.

 

[-Bezza-]

This is good news! My next brew will be made up of a proper mish-mash of ingredients, to use up what I have before ordering new stocks. I'd already planned on chucking a pack of CML Belgian and a pack of CML Real Ale in. No idea what I'm aiming for or what to expect but that's the fun of it. If it ain't the best beer in the history of the world evah, it'll still go down the hatch and get me a wobble on.

And if it doesn't work out, call it a new rare craft beer style and charge an extra £2 for it.

 

[AdeDunn]

Totally. A conscientious brewer will pitch the correct amount of yeast to achieve their aim, regardless of dry or liquid. They're also likely to know that dry yeast is dormant, not dead. A state yeast has been comfortable with, long before humans invented beer.

As a side note, in Jeff Alworths book Secrets of the Master Brewer, John Keeling (Fullers) tip for brewing British Ales of sublime character, is to pitch more than one strain, and not necessarily both of British origin.



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Read about this been done quite a few times now. Like pitching Nottingham with Windsor so you get the flavour from the Windsor AND better attenuation from the Nottingham. I've seen this suggested with Liquid Belgian Saison yeasts also, using a second strain to finish the beer, to get it completely dry. James Morton suggests it for Saisons too, using either champagne yeast, or Brett even, in Brew. I didn't need to using M29 though, it went right down to 1.004 from an OG of 1.054 (compared to the low end of his recipe, 1.058 down to 1.008, I actually got better attenuation... lol).

Oh and Gunge, had a taste of the beer I made with the CML Belgian earlier, my goodness it's spicy tasting!!! So much so, I'm not sure that I like it... Early days yet though, hasn't been in the bottle 2 weeks yet, and the book I got the recipe from said give it 3 weeks to condition. lol

 

[AdeDunn]

And if it doesn't work out, call it a new rare craft beer style and charge an extra £2 for it.

Or sell the recipe to Marstons....

 

[cheeseyfeet]

Hence the hoppiest beers I have produced so far have been my Saisons, and the Hobgoblin Gold clone I have resting in primary waiting to be bottled. :smile6: All made with dry yeast, as I don't have the kit I want for messing with starters just yet.

Care to share your hobgoblin gold recipe? It's a lovely drop!


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[Gerryjo]

Hi!
Many mistakes are made in the brewhouse, but we drink them all.

Many of the best beers came about by mistakes as is this not how we learn in the first place never mind how beer as we know it actually came about.
Yeast has been evolving since the dawn of time considering it is only a single organism which reacts differently to temperatures, climates,water profiles,oxygen levels so no matter who's doing what or how in which lab the only way that you shall replicate anything with your beer is to have a complete and absolute replica of the previous setup.
Besides most beers we try to replicate are on hearsay followed on by years of tradition and hard labour of those who brought them about in the first place and quite sure there are none around to sample and what would they taste like.
On the other hand for the sake of science let's take 20 litres of wort split in two fermentors with one placed in your brewing (shed,room,cave,kitchen) and place the other outside with both covered with a fine mesh to stop little bugs and record the temperatures.After an hour place your lids and airlocks but ferment at the temperatures recorded in both environments as these will be different and watch to see what happens and who knows you may have your crowd pleasing beer and it certainly will be unique but can you replicate it and do you know how many yeast cells actually got into your wort in the first place.
Just for the record I've just finished night shift after 4 long twelve hour shifts and it seems to me if I'm reading correctly that there is a lot of reading being done.
I would propose that maybe a group experiment be tried using g a specific yeast by multiple brewers and give your findings to each other via a bottle swap so as a side by side tasting/sampling can be done but also given to a BJCP judge for validation.
Oh and your not allowed to mess with your water profiles,you must use the same grain from the same supplier and yeast....
I'm only messing by the way but it's food for thought....hehehe

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[svenito]

Many of the best beers came about by mistakes as is this not how we learn in the first place never mind how beer as we know it actually came about.

Agreed.
If you're not making mistakes, you're not pushing yourself hard enough.