Pumps

[DirtyCaner]

Hi folks,

Me and a couple of friends have decided to invest in this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... true&rt=nc

Can anyone advise what sort of pump we should purchase?

Would this be a good choice?

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/produ ... water-pump

Thanks,

DC

 

[Mark1964]

download the pumps manual and see if it could cope with hot water. A large set up would need something like a totton or march may pump

 

[DirtyCaner]

Aha yes, that would be a good start woudn't it! Thanks Mark.

Manual says it for cold water only but the only review is from someone who says they use it to make biodiesel with hot oil... so...

To be honest, I don't really have a clue about this subject so all input gratefully appreciated.

DC

 

[screamlead]

from the web site - •Maximum Output 33 L/min
•Maximum head (lift height) 35m
•Robust cast iron construction = == = :shock:
•330 Watts, 230V
They sell the same here - no good for brewing i'm afraid as cast iron! inclding the internals for the pump

 

[DirtyCaner]

OK thanks Scream.

So what material do I require? Plastic?

 

[tigerpaws]

DO NOT BUY A CLARKE / MACHINEMART PUMP

They are for want of a better word "****"

And I do not wish to fix another p.o.s.

 

[Kev888]

I'd suggest a food-grade pump able to cope with liquid temperatures to at least 85c sparges - or to 100c if you want to sanitise it by pumping boiling wort/water. Sadly, most pumps available are neither of these.

If you can get magnetically coupled ones they tend to have fewer seals and nooks/crannies, and to be restrictable (for speed control) with a tap on the outlet; though most need to be gravity fed as the push but don't suck much. As well as food grade materials, its also worth considering the acidity of wort and the aggressiveness of any chemicals you may want to pump or clean it with. Here are a few that I know are quite popular:

• I've been using the little 14watt solar project pumps for a while but I've started having problems with a couple - they need a suitable low voltage DC supply, and people have used selectable or variable voltage ones to vary the speed. These (unusually) can take boiling wort and are near-silent. About £30
  [/*:m:1okuy59a]
• Then there are some with the model number 20/12 (that go by different brand names) Norm on ebay does these - about £65. I've also used one of these and it works very well - fine up to sparge temperatures.
  [/*:m:1okuy59a]
• Similarly priced and a similar thing are the march may MMP-3 pumpd from (e.g.) the harmony hut - parhaps marginally better than the 20/12 and marginally more expensive, but not much in it at all IMHO. Again, fine up to sparge temperatures.
  [/*:m:1okuy59a]
• There are others which are much more costly, such as the march May 809 and 815 for example. I'm looking at those at the moment and their price is hair-raising even direct from the states. From the UK I just got quoted something like £270 for the 815 including VAT and postage, from the US probably about £90 less after VAT postage and import handling charges. These too can take boiling wort, and whilst they have a good reputation I suspect their price partly relects that there isn't a great deal of directly comparable competition[/*:m:1okuy59a]

Depending on your setup you may need two - it depends if you want to sparge (both in and out) at the same time in fly sparging or without shifting the pump about between batch sparges. And if you use a pump that has handled non-sterile wort in the mash stage to later empty sterile wort from the boiler then it needs to be sanitised in between, either by recirculating cleaners/sanitisers or if it can take it boiling wort or water.

EDIT: I have also come across this at hop and grape, looks a bit of a beast and is probably not magnetically coupled (though you can use a return/bypass loop instead) but not much in the way of specs - I'll have to investigate further. I went there looking for a link to their stainless drill-pump, which seems costly for what it is but has potential if you don't mind the noise of the drill. I wonder if you could boil the whole thing for sanitising...

Cheers
Kev

 

[DirtyCaner]

Thanks Tigerpaws, I'll bear that in mind.

Kev, thats some incredibly useful info you've given me there. Thankyou.

From what I see it might be worth getting a couple of the solar ones for starters then maybe upgrade once I've got a better idea how we are gonna work things.

Would the solar ones be ok for a 200l brew? Would a higher wattage be preferable?

I assume this is the PSU I would use with the pump?

http://shop.solarproject.co.uk/sp312-va ... -p-22.html

Thanks again,

DirtyC

 

[Kev888]

The solar project pumps are pretty good for the size and price. They struggle if air gets into them, and you can't really disassemble the rotor assembly or get into the magnet/shaft for cleaning, but otherwise I've not got much bad to say about them. They have lasted me for the best part of a year before problems began, so treated as a cheap and cheerful way to try things out you could probably do a lot worse. I have suspicions that its been pumping boiling wort in warm weather that has done the electronics in, but no specific evidence.

I only do up to 100L brews and use the highest powered (14watt) ones; that said, i have to throttle them back when fly sparging otherwise i get a stuck mash (using a perforated stainless false bottom as a grain filter), so I'd imagine they would be very happy fly-sparging 200L. It can be a little tedious emptying the boiler to the FV afterwards, but not too bad (they do up to 11L/min OR up to 5m, but not both at once as its a trade-off between flow and height), so I guess the same would apply for batch sparging. With a little patience I see no reason why they wouldn't work for 200L but you may not want to hold the pipe manually for that long..

Yes thats the type of PSU many people use; its powerful enough for the 14watt versions, which not all are, and has a few voltages for different speeds. Apparantly you can physically throttle the output with a valve or tap too. There are various voltage controllers I've seen used as well (trainset controllers, low-voltage lighting dimmers and so on) but that seems more of a lottery as some work whilst others don't. (I built my own variable voltage supply, but I'm okay with electrics and basic electronics).

Cheers
kev

 

[DirtyCaner]

Nice one Kev. Some sterling info there! Will discuss it with my mate but prob go for at least one of these for starters.

Thanks again,

DC

 

[Mark1964]

you will be pumping for ever with a solar pump in a 200 l system we use one but we only brew 25 litres. They are a good pump but you need something beefier for that amount of wort

 

[Kev888]

Yes, possibly; I guess it depends on your expectations really, and if you can afford to go for faster ones.

I empty my 100L boiler with a 14w solar pump in about 15 to 20 mins, so I get about 6 or 7lpm with the head and hops/hop-stopper causing some restriction. It seems pretty reasonable really, the wort comes out at an encouraging rate (enough to form a decent arc from a 1/2" silicone hose) unless I get trubb causing it to stick. I have taken to using some sanitised muslin to stop flies getting into my vessels though, as the lids are cracked open for this time.

So depending on the height (and any other restrictions like plate chillers) I'd guess that you're looking at 'at least' half an hour to empty 200L, probably somewhat more. I definately wouldn't want to hand hold the hose for that long, but with a clamp I'd be happy to let it work away by itself whilst I cleaned the MT or something. BUT I'd probably find it quite tedious if I was waiting for it during batch sparging; I think it'd be quite reasonable for fly sparging, though.

Cheers
kev

 

[tubthumper]

I have seen that dishwars pumps are food grade and def can handle boilg water
try a repair shop or site you can ge them quite cheap

 

[Vossy1]

A lot are, cheap as chips too ...surprised more folk don't use them.

 

[DirtyCaner]

Thanks guys,

To be honest half an hour to do that much liquor seems reasonable as a starter. I reckon we will prob start by doing 100l brews anyway until we are happy with the kit. Do you think with this in mind one solar pump would be enough? I think we would prob upgrade at a later date.

Dishwasher pumps tho? I'll lok into that.

Cheers,

DirtyC

 

[DirtyCaner]

What does it mean if the pump needs priming? eg the Totton pump needs priming or gravity feed. I was gonna use it as an alternative to gravity feeding. If the HLT was 1 foot about ground would that do for gravity feed?

 

[Kev888]

Yes, most homebrew pumps need priming. It means that the pump will work once its got water in, but it won't suck in/up water to begin with if the pump is dry. So you have to 'prime' it first, to get it and the preceeding pipework filled with water before you run it.

There are various ways of doing this, but typically in our type of use it will involve having the pump below the level of the water/wort being pumped, and letting gravity pull the liquid down into it initially (gravity feed). In some setups this may require a bleed valve to let the water run down, or if you have flexible piping you can lower the 'out' pipe to encourage the water down.

Once primed 'some' pumps will then suck up liquid, but quite a few (again, most homebrew ones) aren't much/any good at it and still need to be fed by gravity even after priming - basically they will push out but not pull up/in liquid very well. The totton 20/12 pumps are like this, and its best to keep them at least say a foot below your tank's outlet/tap if you can.

At first glance, it may seem odd that you still need gravity with a pump, but of course you only need the liquid to fall a short distance down into the pump, and the pump can then push it out much higher than it was to begin with.

Cheers
kev

 

[DirtyCaner]

Ok I see, thankyou.

It looks like I'll be doing a 1 and a half platform for all the vessels. I'm thinking of buying the totton pump you reccomended for filling mash tun and draining boiler with a one of the solar pumps for the sparge.

First brewing co-op meeting tomorrow. I have lots of info to share now.

Thanks,

DC