Pubs facing triple tax whammy, says Camra

[Chippy_Tea]

Having read this me and SWMBO made a list and it turns out 12 town centre pubs and clubs have closed in our small town leaving only 7 of the original ones, a couple of wine bars have popped up in other places but its not the place it was when we used to go on our regular week end pub crawls with our mates.

BBC News -

The Campaign for Real Ale (Camra) is calling for a fundamental review of the tax system to stem the tide of pub closures.

It says pubs are being hit hard by a "triple whammy" of one of the highest rates of beer duty across Europe, rapidly rising business rates and VAT.

The lobby group says 18 pubs a week are now closing.

The government says it has provided help for the alcohol industry in recent years through a number of tax changes.

Camra, which has been drumming up support for traditional beer and pubs since 1971, says a third of the cost of a pub pint is due to various taxes.

The British Beer and Pub Association, which also campaigns against beer duty, says that between 2008 and 2013, tax on beer rose by over 40%, with over a third of the price of a pint - an average of 102p - going straight to the taxman.

It says during this period, more than 7,000 pubs closed and 58,000 jobs were lost.

Since 2013, duty has either been cut, or frozen.

New deal

A Treasury spokesperson said: "The alcohol industry makes an important cultural and economic contribution to the UK, and that is why the government is supporting pubs and their customers.

"90% of pubs across the country can benefit from the business rates relief introduced at Budget 2017, which could save them up to £1,000 a year."

It estimates that both businesses and their customers have saved around £3bn thanks to the change to duty in 2013.

Camra said it welcomed these government moves, but that more action was needed to ensure the survival of the remaining 50,000 remaining pubs.

The campaign group said that the UK's exit from the European Union could provide new opportunities to support pubs, such as the potential for lower rates of tax for draught beer.

Colin Valentine, Camra's national chairman said: "We can now look further afield for a new tax deal for the sector. This could include implementing the Australian model of having a lower rate of duty for beer sold in pubs, radically changing the business rates system, or charging a lower rate of VAT for pubs or, even better, all three."

 

[Sadfield]

A bit rich from CAMRA who've helped create an unbalanced market place by supporting Wetherspoons and promoted and facilitated discounted beer within them, at the expense of independent pubs.

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[chthon]

Increased duties on beer in UK? Nothing has changed in the last 200 years then!

 

[Gunge]

Good. Shut the lot down, nowt but dens of iniquity and debauchery... at a price. Do it at home for a fraction.

 

[marshbrewer]

there's a lot to be said for a bit of iniquity and debauchery.

 

[Sandimas]

I'm not so sure it's the result of the tax system, the whole demographic of society has changed: I hardly ever see youngsters in any pubs these days it's all 40, 50 and 60 year olds.

Many young people just don't drink, even moderately. Like many others on here, my whole social life during my late teens and early 20s revolved around pubs: that world is gone now. Even my daughter says to me "you drink a lot" - I have 2, maybe 3 bottles of homebrew on weekend evenings.

Alcohol consumption in the UK seemed to grow in the 70s, 80s and 90s until the whole binge-drinking thing: the current youth seem to have totally rebelled against that and hardly drink or frequent pubs at all.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

You make a very good point my son is 20 and rarely drinks and neither do many of his friends having said that he is at college so doesn't have the money to pay the prices they charge in pubs he also prefers spirits to beer when he does have a drink.

 

[jceg316]

Are these net closures? As in are 20 pubs/week closing and 2 opening, or is the case that 18 pubs/week are closing but 300 are opening? Does it take into consideration that some pubs might close and change the type of premises it is? In which case it's not really a closure but a pub might become a restaurant (but still have a stunning array of beers).

 

[Ken L]

Pubs are part and parcel of our culture and national identity. They are dying on their feet and excessive taxation is definitely part of the problem.
If UKIP ever get their act together, sort out a name change and start fighting for the pre-eminence of British values and British culture, a change in taxation policy for beer sold on draught would be a very popular move.

 

[Dutto]

..................

A Treasury spokesperson said: "The alcohol industry makes an important cultural and economic contribution to the UK, and that is why the government is supporting pubs and their customers.

................

British Steel, British Shipbuilding and a load of other British industries also made a very "important cultural and economic contribution to the UK" so if this is the same government, the pubs are doomed!

An article in the Telegraph six months ago, pointed out that the UK had lost about one-third of its pubs since 1972. In response to the Telegraph article, a Government spokesman said at the time:

"The Great British pub is a national treasure and we're backing communities that want to protect and run their local.

We've already provided more than 9,000 small pubs with a £1,000 discount on their businesses rates bill as part of our £435 million package of support for businesses.

In addition, both pubs and their customers have saved over £2 billion since 2013 thanks to changes to alcohol duty."​

I'm pretty sure that this is the same Government that is "supporting pubs and their customers" in the BBC article.

However, we are truly blessed in the UK because we always have the Daily Mail to report what any head banging racist Tory has to say.

The Daily Mail solved the pub closure problem way back in 2014 when they reported what Tory Peer Lord Hodgson had to say; and it had nothing to do with taxes or pricing or massive business rates or cultural changes or anything else that normal people would consider. No! According to Lord Hodgson, the real reason why UK pubs have closed, apart from putting people on the dole with no money to spend, can be put down to non-drinking Muslims!

In the House of Lords he said:

'Twenty-five years ago, the company of which I was a director (*) would have operated probably a dozen pubs in Kidderminster, the home of the carpet trade. The carpet trade has gone and there are three pubs left.

In areas of Nottingham, Leicester, Manchester, Leeds and Birmingham the increase in the Muslim population who don't drink leads to many pub closures."​

Fair do's, the Daily Mail also reported that some people considered the statements ridiculous but please remember, that this idiot is part of OUR Government folks and THEY are currently negotiating OUR future outside of the EU; where the average population is 4.9% Muslim!

Things have to change! :thumb:

BTW, the UK has lost 33% of pubs in the last 45 years so how does this compare to the number of "non-drinking Muslims" in the UK when compared to other countries? Here are the main stats in terms of Muslim % of the population:

• Cyprus 25.4%
• Bulgaria 11.1%
• Sweden 8.1%
• France 8.8%
• Belgium 7.6%
• Netherlands 7.1%
• Austria 6.9%
• UK 6.1%
• Germany 6.1%
• Switzerland 6.1%

So, the UK is 8th in the European League of Muslims and France is 4th.

I have to say that finding a Bar/Café in France has never presented me with a problem even though they too are losing Bars to the TV, cultural changes etc. Oh, and of course those "non-drinking Muslims".

Actually, I am still waiting for Chantal's husband Ahmed (a Muslim of Algerian extraction) to refuse a dram whenever they visit us! Maybe he doesn't read the Daily Mail.? :wave:

(*) Marston's

Reference:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ave-closed-since-1970s-beer-campaigners-warn/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...f-labelled-ridiculous-following-comments.html

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/29/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

 

[Gunge]

Overturn the ludicrous smoking ban and watch 'em all reopen. Travelling any distance to buy overpriced, inferior beer to my own, to drink in the company of strangers and reprobates, AND being forced to stand in the rain for a cig?? Gawd how can I resist that?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Why didn't they give pubs that had a separate room permission for it to be used by smokers some non smokers don't mind being in company of family and friends that smoke there was no need for a blanket ban.

 

[jceg316]

Are these net closures? As in are 20 pubs/week closing and 2 opening, or is the case that 18 pubs/week are closing but 300 are opening? Does it take into consideration that some pubs might close and change the type of premises it is? In which case it's not really a closure but a pub might become a restaurant (but still have a stunning array of beers).

To add to my original questions I want to know whether this is just "traditional" British pubs or bars as a whole? Granted this is anecdotal, but from what I can see I'm spoilt for choice on where to drinking. Not just in London but every UK city I've been to the past few years, and even smaller towns have at least one or two craft beer spots which weren't open a few years ago. Most of these aren't traditional boozers but they are still good places to drink good beer.

 

[Dmet]

God no. Keep smoking out of pubs. I have been into smoking pubs on the continent and they are awful. Watching my dad slowly dying of COPD makes me wander why anyone would want to do that to themselves.

With regards to pubs, cheap supermarket booze, the availability 24 hours a day from supermarkets, garages and 24 hour shops at a fraction of the price of the pub is a big contributing factor.

Traditional pubs are also falling out of favour to micropubs and cafe / bars. It is surprising how many young people are drinking in these places. A local pub to me was struggling for the last few years. It was sold off by the brewery, taken over by a new couple so a free house and they run it on a semi micro pub model. Beer on the back of the bar from gravity, 4 keykeg lines, a fridge full of cider boxes, 3 fridges with 150 bottle beers and trendy gins, no big brewery lagers or Guinness. The place is packed at weekends with a cross section of people.

Bars with keykegs are running away in London over traditional CAMRA pubs and are full of young people of both sexes drinking good beer. If CAMRA had shifted focus on protecting pubs and not vindicating those that didn't conform to the preferred dispensing style then there may not have been so many closures. It ironic that they helped create the keykeg, keeping the gas off the beer.

As for the Muslims killing pubs, what tosh. That would imply that the Muslim population is going up and the non-Muslim population is decreasing. There are still the same number of non Muslims in the country, just they are not choosing to drink in pubs.

Pubs are still a social space and I would much prefer drinking in a pub interacting with others than sitting in front of the telly drinking at home.

 

[Cwrw666]

Pubs that are busy make shed-loads of money. Quiet ones obviously don't.

For example, my local was run by the same couple for 25 years and they decided to sell up. Asking price was 295K. They had no takers so threatened to close the place which has resulted in a community buy out of the place (and yes, I've got a few shares).
Funny thing though, the landlord told me the pub was making a profit of £50,000 per year after taking their own wages out!

 

[terrym]

@Dutto
Pubs have been closing over the last 40 years irrespective of which lot are in power so to make this another political statement placing the 'blame' squarely on to those nasty Tories is misleading at best. Whilst some pubs are no doubt closing due to economic pressure, social habits have changed considerably from the days when you just sat in a smoky pub and supped beer because there was nothing else to do. Nowadays there are other things to do, and so people don't just 'go down the pub' like they did in years gone by. Add to that mix the diverse array of alcohol able to be purchased cheaply in your local supermarket, is it any small wonder why many people no longer go to their local pub, unless they serve food.
And to clarify the position on Islam and alcohol, the Koran forbids Moslems to consume alcohol. Full stop. Whether a practising Moslem chooses to follow that directive is of course entirely down to them.
Finally it beggars belief to compare the closure of pubs to the demise of British Steel and 'British Shipbuilding' which were simply uncompetitive against similar industries from say China, India and Korea. They simply produced their product cheaper than we could, and probably on schedule as well.

 

[Sadfield]

I think there are many pubs shut because they have no landlords, purely because pubcos and breweries want too bigger cut, it's not an attractive business proposition anymore. All the successful pubs and bars locally aren't tied, and have the ability source their beers, wines and spirits from whoever they wish.

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[Chippy_Tea]

God no. Keep smoking out of pubs. I have been into smoking pubs on the continent and they are awful. Watching my dad slowly dying of COPD makes me wander why anyone would want to do that to themselves.

I don't mean allow smoking in pubs just in ones that can provide a separate room for smokers or why not let the landlord decide to have a smoking pub if he thinks it will do well, i don't see why people should be forced to "enjoy" their evening huddled in a perspex bus shelter at the back of the pub in the middle of winter just because they are addicted to nicotine and thats coming from an x 30 a day smoker who gave up years ago.

.

 

[-Bezza-]

I don't mean allow smoking in pubs just in ones that can provide a separate room for smokers or why not let the landlord decide to have a smoking pub if he thinks it will do well, i don't see why people should be forced to "enjoy" their evening huddled in a perspex bus shelter at the back of the pub in the middle of winter just because they are addicted to nicotine and thats coming from an x 30 a day smoker who gave up years ago.

.

I would think there are few things here.

1) The government don't want people smoking at all owing to the increased healthcare costs (even taking into account additional duty on cigarettes, probably, I have no idea)
2) Consideration needs to be given as to whether concessions on smoking encourages any non-smokers to start smoking
3) As a non-smoker, it's always been the case that the smokers rule where everyone sits (even now, I am occassionally forced to sit out in the freezing cold to accommodate smokers) so, practically, I'd be stuck in the smoking room even though I didn't want to be there.

 

[-Bezza-]

I think a shift in demographics has to account for some of the closures. In London, you can't get to the bar because pubs are so crowded on a Thursday or Friday evening - the closure of local pubs might be something to do with the increased urbanisation of the workforce. More people are commuting, e.g. I get home at 8pm most evenings, so no time to go down the pub once I've had dinner and helped put the little one to bed. Would be different if I walked to work and was home at 6pm.

Massive generalisation here too, and one that will no doubt cause offence to some (sorry in advance) - drinkers in local pubs appear to me to be older men of more working class background. By and large, the younger generations aren't of the same ilk, so perhaps aren't needing the pub experience in the same way anymore.

And I think men are generally taking on more roles around the home, especially as more women are working compared to previous generations. It's all shared responsibilities to harder to argue that a bloke needs time off down the pub to unwind.

From a commercial angle, a lot of local pubs haven't kept up with changes in trends and are still appealing to the older generation - stale old, flat British bitters and bland fizzy lagers, perhaps with a fruit-based alcopop in the fridge. Not what I look for in a pub. It's either that or going gastropub and making people feel uncomfortable for just wanting a drink!

I dunno, just think it goes a lot deeper than just taxes. But taxes won't help.