Pubs facing triple tax whammy, says Camra

[Chippy_Tea]

1) If the government really wanted us to stop smoking they would have banned it years ago.

2) I doubt having a smoking pub or separate smoking room is going to encourage anyone to start.

3) why would you have to sit in the smoking room if the only reason it exists is because there is a non smoking room?

 

[-Bezza-]

1) If the government really wanted us to stop smoking they would have banned it years ago.

2) I doubt having a smoking pub or separate smoking room is going to encourage anyone to start.

3) why would you have to sit in the smoking room if the only reason it exists is because there is a non smoking room?

1) If it's illegal, it can't be taxed. There are still people out there who smoke and they would still buy cigarettes on the black market. Might as well tax it then. I wonder if smoking was a new thing whether it would be illegal? Same with alcohol too.

3) Because all the smokers will want to sit there so they can smoke. On the basis that non-smokers can sit in the smoking room, but people can't smoke in the non-smoking room, groups containing smokers would generally all gravitate to the smoking room.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Good. Shut the lot down, nowt but dens of iniquity and debauchery... at a price. Do it at home for a fraction.

If the pubs go, who's next in line to make up for the lost tax revenue......

 

[-Bezza-]

Statistics on tax revenues in the UK are an interesting read:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._tax_and_NICs_receipts_-_statistics_table.pdf

Edit: would be good if they were re-based for GDP growth, so you could see where things were increasing or decreasing in real terms.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

You say - The government don't want people smoking at all owing to the increased healthcare costs (even taking into account additional duty on cigarettes, probably, I have no idea)

I suggest if it was the case they would have banned it years ago.

Then you say - If it's illegal, it can't be taxed. There are still people out there who smoke and they would still buy cigarettes on the black market. Might as well tax it then. I wonder if smoking was a new thing whether it would be illegal? Same with alcohol too.

So do they want us all to stop or carry on so they can get the tax?

.......

You say - As a non-smoker, it's always been the case that the smokers rule where everyone sits (even now, I am occassionally forced to sit out in the freezing cold to accommodate smokers) so, practically, I'd be stuck in the smoking room even though I didn't want to be there.

I ask - why would you have to sit in the smoking room if the only reason it exists is because there is a non smoking room?

You reply - Because all the smokers will want to sit there so they can smoke. On the basis that non-smokers can sit in the smoking room, but people can't smoke in the non-smoking room, groups containing smokers would generally all gravitate to the smoking room.

Its called choice if you do not want to go in don't if your friends prefer to sit in a smoke filled room than a non smoking room knowing how much you do not like it its time to get some new friends!

.

 

[-Bezza-]

So do they want us all to stop or carry on so they can get the tax?

They want it to fizzle out over time. It would be too difficult to implement a ban immediately, so they might as well collect some taxes whilst they can and wait until there are far fewer smokers before making any real decision. Trouble with making it illegal is that you need to enforce it (i.e. black market and at borders), which would be too difficult or expensive to do.

Personally, I'm glad there's a ban. Next step is to ban it from all public places so I don't get smoke blown in my face as I'm walking down the street.

Anyway, this is another one of those binary discussions, where people will have equally strong but opposing viewpoints. We'll not make friends by continuing the debate! :thumb:

 

[Ajhutch]

The smoking ban conversation is quite interesting. I was too young and uninterested to follow the issue when it came in, but obviously smoking wasn’t just banned in pubs, it was banned in every indoor public space, including pubs. Was it the case that pubs were the specific target or collateral damage, or somewhere in between?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Personally, I'm glad there's a ban. Next step is to ban it from all public places so I don't get smoke blown in my face as I'm walking down the street.

I am an x-30 a day smoker and gave up 15 or more years ago, i was happy the ban was brought in but not the way it was brought in i feel (as i have already said) there were other options, why would you want all smoking banning in public places, how often do people blow smoke in your face, this seems way over the top to me.

 

[-Bezza-]

The smoking ban conversation is quite interesting. I was too young and uninterested to follow the issue when it came in, but obviously smoking wasn’t just banned in pubs, it was banned in every indoor public space, including pubs. Was it the case that pubs were the specific target or collateral damage, or somewhere in between?

I believe it stemmed from the idea that non-smokers shouldn't need to be exposed to passive smoking. This was particularly focused on ensuring places of work were all smoke-free, which included pubs of course as bar staff work in a pub. I don't think there was an intention to target pubs and seem to recall there was a lot of discussion at the time about whether concessions should be made for pubs, private clubs etc. There was something quite strange about walking into a pub or club shortly after the ban came in and realising what the place actually smelt like!!

 

[terrym]

Remarkably there are still about 1 in 6 adults in the UK who still smoke although the trend is for this number to slowly decrease. As much as I personally detest smoking and avoid people who do smoke and places where they can legally smoke wherever I can, and know at least two people who are dying from COPD, I do not agree with making smoking illegal. It simply wouldn't work, and there is no similar precedent. Look what happened to Prohibition. So tax it more as a deterrent by all means to encourage smokers to stop, and ring fence the tobacco tax revenue to fund treatment of smoking related diseases like lung cancer and COPD, but keep it legal.
And on topic I personally think smoke free atmospheres in pubs and licenced premises are more likely to encourage people to visit rather than stay away, especially since 5 out of 6 adults don't smoke, and many of those now enjoy a smoke free environment. Though smoking itself is now only a small factor in determining whether pubs are successful or not.

 

[Ajhutch]

Though smoking itself is now only a small factor in determining whether pubs are successful or not.

I’m sure this must be right, especially this long after the ban came in. Anyone younger than about 30 has basically never been able to smoke in a pub. I can imagine it being a bigger factor right after the ban though.

 

[terrym]

I’m sure this must be right, especially this long after the ban came in. Anyone younger than about 30 has basically never been able to smoke in a pub. I can imagine it being a bigger factor right after the ban though.

I think you are probably right. My recollection was that there was a big hoohah at the time about people not being able to smoke in pubs, and that people would no longer visit , but that slowly went away as people realised that a smoky pub is not a very nice place to be, and when you got home your clothes, hair and person didn't stink of stale tobacco smoke as they had previously done.

 

[Dmet]

I think with the advent of vaping then the number of smokers will reduce. I am not one of these who believe that vaping will lead to smoking as it is not a gateway thing. If that were really the case then you would say everyone who drinks beer is using it as a gateway to hard spirits. I am still undecided on vaping in pubs. I don't think the health issues are an issue with passive vaping, more that you are exposed to it without choice unless you chose not to visit that pub. I believe health wise vaping should be encouraged over smoking.

I believe that the comment about not moving with the times is relevant to me. I go to a pub and if it is Doombar, standard lager and Guinness with Manns brown in the fridge, I am disappointed although I can see that others are happy with that formula. Of all the pubs in my town, the better real ale pub has an unwelcoming landlord but above average beer with choice with a declining clientele due to the micro style pub opening around the corner with a more open welcome and a better selection.

Another aspect is landlords used to be a fixture in a pub for years. With the pubcos came short term leases, cheap rent for the first year to encourage people in with inflated sales figures, which rocketed up in the second year and financially crippled the tenets by the third. This meant that pubs seemed to have a never ending stream of managers who were paid poorly and didn't really care about the trade with the pubcos speculating on the property prices. I do believe that is why wetherspoons with average wage bar staff with no interest in the customers give a far worse pub experience than a privately owned freehouse where the owners need to make a living so put in the extra effort.

 

[Dutto]

@Dutto
Pubs have been closing over the last 40 years irrespective of which lot are in power so to make this another political statement placing the 'blame' squarely on to those nasty Tories is misleading at best. ...........

...............

And to clarify the position on Islam and alcohol, the Koran forbids Moslems to consume alcohol. Full stop. Whether a practising Moslem chooses to follow that directive is of course entirely down to them.

Finally it beggars belief to compare the closure of pubs to the demise of British Steel and 'British Shipbuilding' which were simply uncompetitive against similar industries from say China, India and Korea. They simply produced their product cheaper than we could, and probably on schedule as well.

With regard to "Blaming the Tories" all I did was to quote two articles that were published by The Daily Telegraph and The Daily Mail; both of which are regarded as being biased towards the Tories; so how come I am blaming those "nasty Tories" and "misleading" people?

The Original Post stated:

A Treasury spokesperson said: "The alcohol industry makes an important cultural and economic contribution to the UK, and that is why the government is supporting pubs and their customers."​

I Posted this in response:

British Steel, British Shipbuilding and a load of other British industries also made a very "important cultural and economic contribution to the UK" so if this is the same government, the pubs are doomed!​

I can well remember the hand-wringing that went on as the Government of the day "supported" British Steel, British Shipbuilding and many other industries; and then I had to watch as these industries were either sold off or left to go into a more or less terminal decline. So may I assume, from your rather defensive response, that this IS the same government?

The consumption of alcohol within the Muslim community is varied but although it is generally forbidden, the first mention in the Koran only states that is was forbidden for Muslims to attend prayers whilst intoxicated.

Just like the Christian Religion, the Muslim faith has a variety of factions. Some of them (e.g. Zaidi and Mutazili sects) forbid the consumption of alcohol whilst others (e.g. Ismaili sect) discourage rather than forbid the consumption of alcohol.

Like many religions, there are those amongst us who try to follow a particular line of teaching and fail miserably. In my own religions, the teachers preach that tolerance and forgiveness should always be extended to other people; a teaching that I fail to encompass on a regular basis. Mea culpa!

With regard to the craze for "improving" pubs they say it perfectly on here ...



The first line of the chorus is so true that it hurts! In my local on Deeside in Scotland a new owner ripped out all the small alcoves that made the Public Bar "personal" and installed a fecking train that ran around the Bar up near the ceiling going "Choo-choo!" as it trundled past.
"Vandalism" is too nice a word! :thumb:

It never fails to amaze me how some people never look at the message, they just blame the messenger! :wave:

 

[Ken L]

To be honest, I'm waiting for pubs to start banning smoking altogether. Not in the beer garden, not in the car park and definitely not in a choking huddle outside the door.
Hereabouts, it's about families, most of the business is in the summer and I simply don't want some inconsiderate moron stinking up my meal and beer.

 

[Gunge]

Hereabouts, it's about families, most of the business is in the summer and I simply don't want some inconsiderate moron stinking up my meal and beer.

I don't want some horrible paella-munching freak spoiling my fine Imperial tobacco! Pubs were once all beer and cigs. Now it's beer and food. How could it have all gone so horribly wrong?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Hereabouts, it's about families, most of the business is in the summer and I simply don't want some inconsiderate moron stinking up my meal and beer.

How are they going to stink up your meal/beer if my above suggestion was the way they handled it in the first place you would not come into contact with smokers or their smoke.

 

[Gunge]

Anyways, kids have no place in pubs - that's what bleedin' McDonald's and Burger King etc were invented for.

 

[Dmet]

Speaking to one of my local landlords yesterday, the next thing creeping up is the sugar tax. The price of normal coke is set to increase along with all the other non-diet soft drinks including J2O and other juices. He seemed to think it would effect the alco-pops too.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Business rates are also being blamed (5 live as I type)