Pub enthusiasts: advice needed

[jpbl68]

I've spent the last 6 months working in a pub. My job has me working both on the bar and behind the scenes in the kitchen. I'm currently being trained up to take care of the cellar. We stock half a dozen cask ales and about half a dozen keg lagers, stouts and ciders.

I'd like to be as good at my job as possible. So, I'm after any advice you guys can offer.

As customers, what do you expect from a pub? What would you like to see more/less of in the pubs you frequent?

Any publicans here? What advice can you offer those entering the profession?


Are there any decent books/sites that could help me better manage my pub's cellar?

 

[leedsbrew]

It's nice to see someone taking the job seriously, and wanting to take pride in it.

I was a bar/cellar man when at university (infact I was probably at university while working as a bar/cellar man when you split the time I was at each ) in a local real ale bar. A few tips I picked up were

1: Keep your cellar clean and tidy

This seems like a fairly simple staitment but an untidy cellar can lead to alot of stress on a busy shift, and if your not on site other members of staff can make a big balls up if everything is everywhere

2: Even with half a dozen cask lines, keep a black board of what's on, what's racked and what's coming up next for racking. Again seems simple but if you don't do it or you let it slip, either you or someone else is going to make a balls up!

3: For the bar side, I know I like, and customers generally appreciate, the staff having a good knowledge of the beer they are serving, and be able to make suggestions. You don't have to know the middle name of the head brewers assistant, but if you can tell them where the brewry is, what type of beer is on the pump and what they can expect, all the better. We used to pass a half round behind theb bar when a line got changed so we all knoew what the new beer was all about.

Hope they are not teaching you how to suck eggs



cheers

LB

ps: the spelling in this post is probably *****! I'm at the tail end of a 13 hour night shift and starting to see double!

 

[battwave]

Why don't you pick a series of questions about the customer experience, and set-up a poll on this website?

You may be able to use the results, not-only to improve your own skills, but as evidence on your CV to show to a prospective employer (or your current employer when it comes to pay review time) :hmm:

 

[Cussword]

ps: the spelling in this post is probably *****! I'm at the tail end of a 13 hour night shift and starting to see double!

Wee new wot yew ment :lol:

 

[jpbl68]

It's nice to see someone taking the job seriously, and wanting to take pride in it...

Thanks :

I've really grown to love my job (most of the time). Thanks for the advice.

Why don't you pick a series of questions about the customer experience, and set-up a poll on this website?

That's a great idea. Once I figure out some questions I'll probably make a survey on Survey Monkey and post the link here.

 

[Nunfa1]

Just a thought I had when in my local last week. If you only have a few cask ales on try to make sure they offer different styles and strengths.
My local had Adnams Broadside at 4.7% and Dragons Tail at 4.5% and both were very similar in taste, nice mind but not much of a choice.

 

[critch]

ive run an award winning pub got to agree with what nunfa and leedsbrew have written. variety is the spice of life,however, ive found pale ales and blondes outsell traditional ales 3-4 to 1

this is a pretty good website for dispense issueshttp://www.inndoctor.co.uk/

these are good sites for brewery info and linkshttp://www.quaffale.org.uk/

andhttp://www.beermad.org.uk/

 

[jamesb]

The CAMRA Cellarmanship book is pretty good too.

 

[jpbl68]

It's been a while, I know, but since starting this thread I've been on a few courses and feel a bit more confident about working in the cellar. I've just ordered Cellarmanship, hopefully that will provide me with some useful pointers.

Thanks, gents :

 

[evanvine]

As customers, what do you expect from a pub?

Lower staff wages to enable cheaper beer!

 

[jpbl68]

If my boss paid me any less I'd have to start paying him to let me come to work!


But I know what you mean. And it's only going to get more expensive.

 

[evanvine]

But I know what you mean. And it's only going to get more expensive.

 

[jpbl68]

Didn't you know? Alcohol is responsible for all this nation's problems and the way to rectify that is by taxing the crap out of it :P

 

[shocker]

And there was me thinking it was the bankers and their paid poodle politicians !

So , in effect , we f**ked ourselves ....no wonder the government treat us like a bunch of wnakers .... :? :whistle:

 

[shocker]

Seriously though , its really nice to have you , the OP , taking such an interest . I live 5 miles from St Austell brewery , which I read is the fastest growing , strongest business etc etc , yet I cant get a decent pint in any of the nearby pubs . When they do have something worth having they dont know what to do with it . Went for a drink the other day with my landlord (not pub landlord , that would be too much to ask from life) and the new , young barman gave us the hard sell on the "new" , "american" budweiser on draught . He kept telling us "its the real stuff !" ,my landlord asks , "Really? Budvar ?"

barman ; " No ! The REAL stuff !"
LandLord ; " From czech ?"
barman ; "No! The REAL stuff from america !"
LL (giving up ) "I'll just have a pint of fosters then."
barman "OK , a pint of bud"
LL "No thank you , a pint of fosters please"
barman " I'll get you a bud ,its much better " (which may be true but not the point)
LL "Look , can I just have a pint of fosters please ?" this routine went on for some time until the manager was called and LL got his (shudder!) fosters . Then it was my turn .Shocks ; "What real beers have you got on ?"

Barman "They're all real !"
Shocks ; "OK , what real ales have you got on ?"
baman ; "Dont you want to try the new bud ? Its the real ...." etc etc , by which time LL had finished his pint and we left without me getting a drink at all . Not that I wanted one by that point if he had anything to do with the cellar .

I know that the wages are not enough of a draw to pull in the best of the applicants but its nice when the staff take an interest . I worked around a lot of bars when I was a sound engineer and became increasingly impressed with the hard work and dedication it takes to run real beers consistently , also how easy it is to completely ignore that side of things .

Reading back what I have written here , and thinking over a few pub situations I have been around I think the best piece of advice I could give you is "dont tell people what they want" . Suggest by all means but dont try to make your regulars fit a business plan or sales figures . I saw a few pubs go down that way .

 

[Darcey]

Cask conditioned ale should be sold within 3days to get the best from the beer
Cask conditioned ale should be served from a line cleaned at least once a week
Cask conditioned ale should ALWASYS be served from a cellar at between 11-13C.

Those are the Cask Marque guide lines..

Personaly...
Allways clean the tut and shive before tapping and venting. Think those barrels have been rolled all over the shop and need cleaning before you pop the tap or peg in the top and introduce all that dirt to the clean beer inside.!!!
Vent cask ales AT LEST 3 days before serving so they can loose any excess CO2
Tap casks the day after venting and leave at least 1 day before serving
Casks should be tilted at the end of service (unless your using cask tilters)
The cellar should be as clean as possible. No standing beer or water where avoidable
Beer should be given time to settle.. but should be 'agitated' before final stillaging* to re suspend the finings (*assuming the casks are lay flat during the service and don't use the 'dip tube' extraction method of most Bass pubs (Mitchels and Butlers).
+ Many more if you want to know.....


I have run a huge cellar before and have 3 years Cask Marque, 3 CAMRA awards.. happy to help with any other questions.. just PM me...
D

 

[evanvine]

I'm impressed "D", well done :thumb:

 

[jpbl68]

Cask conditioned ale should be sold within 3days to get the best from the beer
Cask conditioned ale should be served from a line cleaned at least once a week
Cask conditioned ale should ALWASYS be served from a cellar at between 11-13C....

Thanks Darcey :thumb:


Just a few questions:

Once you've begun venting the beer roughly how long do you have before the beer becomes unsaleable?
Why do you vent and tap separately? (I've always been told to do them simultaneously)



edit-

+ Many more if you want to know.....

Definitely. If you've got the time I'll take any advice you've got to give.

 

[Darcey]

Thanks Darcey :thumb:
Just a few questions:
Once you've begun venting the beer roughly how long do you have before the beer becomes unsaleable?
Why do you vent and tap separately? (I've always been told to do them simultaneously)
.

I think you will find that most brewerys and/or beer companys will say to 'vent on day of delivery'.. I tend to find this impractical and pointless.

The reason we vent cask beer is not to 'condition it' as people sometimes believe it is to allow the excess Co2 to be 'vented'. At 12C cask beer will keep its level of Co2 constant to the normal level expected. i.e. above 12C the beer will be too hot to hold the co2 and it will become 'flat'... below 12c the beer can hold more co2 and become too 'lively' which is bad for head retention and also for stocks.

The reason the cellar is at 12c is not because its good randomly.. its good because at this temperature a 'vented' cask will hold more or less the correct volumes of co2 for a 'cask conditioned pint'.

In theory a cask that has been vented in a clean cellar (and has had the tut, shive and tap cleaned), will last for ~20days before any effect is felt in the beer. Beer in cask (in a clean cellar or a dirty cellar) will only start to deteriorate after it has start to have been served. Think of all that cellar air being drawn in the top of the cask!!! (and so why you should keep the cellar clean!). Realistically you have 5days... but the flavour will start to sky dive after the 3rd day unless the beer is 5%+ in which case you should get a week before its undrinkable (thats not how to win awards!!).

Honestly... if you care about the beer.. check it daily. Before you put it on have a sample from the cask (its common practice and landlords should have no problems with you doing this.) and then check it every day its on.. eventually you'll know buy smell or sight alone, but if you have to have a quick taste, its the only REAL way of knowing.

I am happy to answer any other questions you may have!

D :thumb:

**Edit..***

Keep a record or ask for one of how much cask is being sold.. half the skill of a true cellarman is knowing WHEN to have the RIGHT beer on. There is no point having a masive hop bomb at 6% on a monday.. because by the time people will come in to enjoy it it'll be past its best (Day 3!!!). Its better to have 5 hand pumps and only have 2 beers on and served well than to have 5 beers all the time served averagely! In these times of hardship where a pint can cost £3... id MUCH rather have a VERY good pint of 'boring ale' than have a substandard 'micro'....

 

[jpbl68]

So far I've been working under the impression that ~24 hours was enough time to vent a beer. Any longer than that and all you were doing was allowing the quality of the beer to start to deteriorate in the cellar. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'll try to put that into practise from now on.


At the moment my main problem is other people interfering in the cellar. There's a new guy at my pub who likes to think he knows it all when really he knows very little. He's unwilling to ask for help and has real difficulty accepting it when it's offered freely. He's a bit of an alpha-wannabe, too.


Anyway, thanks again, D :