Proportional representation

[Chippy_Tea]

Interesting discussion on twitter, i am all for it will we ever get it?




Andy's dad is right! "I'm a late convert. My dad has worked on me all my life to support PR... why should we always be under a minority-supported Tory government?" -
@AndyBurnhamGM
#AndysDad #Burnham4PR #Labour4PR

 

[An Ankoù]

Didn't we have a referendum on PR when Tony Blair was in power, and didn't we turn it down? Or am I getting mixed up with something else.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Didn't we have a referendum on PR when Tony Blair was in power, and didn't we turn it down? Or am I getting mixed up with something else.

I added another screen shot after you posted it includes the referendum you mention -

The date of the article is 2001 i think after 20 years its worth discussing again.


https://t.co/t8SB9W0HXT?amp=1

 

[pilgrimhudd]

We had a referendum on some convoluted system when the coalition gov was in power too.

 

[RichardM]

We had a referendum on some convoluted system when the coalition gov was in power too.

Yes, I don't remember the detail of the proposed system, but it was awful and I voted against it. If it had been proper PR then I would have voted in favour.

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Yes, I don't remember the detail of the proposed system, but it was awful and I voted against it. If it had been proper PR then I would have voted in favour.

Me too

 

[MmmBeer]

I could never understand the concept of PR. It would either mean that you had no local representaion whatsoever (and further isolate the electorate from parliament) or would leave some unfortunate areas represented my monster loonies or other such oddball candidates.

The referendum we had was soundly rejected, far better use of tax payers money would be to level off the population in UK constituencies by means of boundary changes and stop the undemocratic situation we have now where certain constituencies have over five times the population of others, yet both deliver a single MP.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I could never understand the concept of PR. It would either mean that you had no local representaion whatsoever (and further isolate the electorate from parliament) or would leave some unfortunate areas represented my monster loonies or other such oddball candidates.

Skip to 3:12 if you dont want to watch it all -

 

[moto748]

PR is like cannabis decriminalisation, in a way. It's easy for oppositions to say they are in favour it, it's more democratic and fairer, it's what they do in other countries, etc etc..

Yet somehow when they get into power, the system that got them there seems the best one overall! Turkeys don't vote for Xmas

And that's why, just like with cannabis decriminalisation,, although people have been saying, it's just round the corner for decades, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Random Badger]

My views on our voting system are the same as the last time I posted about this: Cummings testimony

Our first past the post elections are not fit for purpose and perpetuate an adversarial two party system where coalition and cooperation is discouraged and many people find their vote is wasted. If they bother to vote all they can do is pick the "least worst" candidate from the biggest parties in their constituency rather than the person and party that they actually want. There is often a massive discrepancy between the number of votes and the all important number of parliamentary seats. A party can end up with an overwhelming majority in the house whilst only receiving forty percent of the votes, whereas a party receiving more than ten percent of the votes can end up with next to nothing. Just look at the results from the last 3 general elections:

2019	Votes	Seats
Conservative	43.6%	56.2%
Labour	32.2%	31.1%
Liberal Democrat	11.6%	1.7%
Scottish National	3.9%	7.4%
2017	Votes	Seats
Conservative	42.4%	48.8%
Labour	40.0%	40.3%
Liberal Democrat	7.4%	1.8%
Scottish National	3.0%	5.4%
2015	Votes	Seats
Conservative	36.8%	50.8%
Labour	30.4%	35.7%
UK Independence	12.6%	0.2%
Liberal Democrat	7.9%	1.2%
Scottish National	4.7%	8.6%

 

[Ronin56]

We had a referendum on some convoluted system when the coalition gov was in power too.

Single Transferable Vote. Single transferable vote - Wikipedia

Note really what I think of PR but this is brilliant IMO -

 

[Covrich]

I remember the 2010 election

Clegg managed to get 6.8m voters compared to 8.6m labour and 10.7m tory

yet he has 57 seats compared to 258 labour and 306 tory.. Something is not right with that system..

I do think a lot more people will be inclined to vote if they thought their vote counted and was not part of a rigged system.

It is why I don't bother too much with politics, I always vote but I am not bothered or align myself with any party.. The game is rigged and the turkeys will not vote for christmas so it wll never change.

 

[Ronin56]

I remember the 2010 election

View attachment 51205

Clegg managed to get 6.8m voters compared to 8.6m labour and 10.7m tory

yet he has 57 seats compared to 258 labour and 306 tory.. Something is not right with that system..

I do think a lot more people will be inclined to vote if they thought their vote counted and was not part of a rigged system.

It is why I don't bother too much with politics, I always vote but I am not bothered or align myself with any party.. The game is rigged and the turkeys will not vote for christmas so it wll never change.

It could happen but it would need Labour, Lib Dems, Greens and anybody else they could muster to agree not to contest constituencies where others had the best chance on the basis it was a one off to produce PR. Unlikely, but not impossible.

 

[moto748]

Just another Prisoners' Dilemma: everyone acts in their own self-interest, and we don't end up with the best result.

 

[johncrobinson]

I am all for change.

BUT if I were in power "Lets keep the status quo" would be my argument.Too much to lose otherwise,

 

[moto748]

The thing with PR is that there are two aspects to it. The first is the ideal of making all votes of equal (or more equal) value. Why should your Labour vote effectively count for nothing in a safe Tory, seat, and vice versa? Whereas for the fortunate few who live in swing constituencies, their vote could literally make the difference. And the under-representation of minority parties is overcome. But the downside is, and this is what has happened in other countries, Germany is a good example, that these minority parties actually get an influence greater than their support merits, on account of their 'king-maker' status. So, more democratic? Probably. But, as for, would it lead to better government, I think the jury is still out.

 

[Random Badger]

The thing with PR is that there are two aspects to it. The first is the ideal of making all votes of equal (or more equal) value. Why should your Labour vote effectively count for nothing in a safe Tory, seat, and vice versa? Whereas for the fortunate few who live in swing constituencies, their vote could literally make the difference. And the under-representation of minority parties is overcome. But the downside is, and this is what has happened in other countries, Germany is a good example, that these minority parties actually get an influence greater than their support merits, on account of their 'king-maker' status. So, more democratic? Probably. But, as for, would it lead to better government, I think the jury is still out.

Does FPTP necessarily stop that though? In the last decade we have had two UK governments that relied on deals with smaller parties (Lib Dems and DUP). And I seem to recall the Tories making the claim that voting for Labour would lead to a Labour/SNP coalition taking power.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

How can any system where the party that gets most votes total and doesn't win be fair.