Pressure fermenting

[MickDundee]

All I am doing is responding to questions asked. That is why it is called a 'Forum"

You’ve not responded to my question about why your pressure fermented lager “didn’t taste like a lager”!

 

[foxy]

You’ve not responded to my question about why your pressure fermented lager “didn’t taste like a lager”!

I answered that question early on, pressure fermented lager, not only mine but others I have tasted more of a Saison or Kolsch, never with the taste and finish of a true lager or pilsner.

 

[Agentgonzo]

After reading a few of the articles at brulosophy it seems like pressure fermenting warm still produces esters and if a non-pressurized ferment is warm there will be little difference. But there is a difference was pressure fermenting warm lager vs cold non pressure fermented. It seems though people prefer a warm fermented lager though....


https://brulosophy.com/2020/07/30/e...-at-ale-temperature-the-bru-club-xbmt-series/

Oh Jesus.... Don't mention the B word or his head will explode! They are number one charlatan and exploiters of people who do it differently the gullible.

 

[MickDundee]

I answered that question early on, pressure fermented lager, not only mine but others I have tasted more of a Saison or Kolsch, never with the taste and finish of a true lager or pilsner.

Must have got lost in your answers where you were trying to prove me wrong before you attempted to prove yourself right. However, when I search this thread for “saison”, “kolsch” or “true lager” this post is the only one that appears.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I feel sorry for the OP. Yet another thread where they ask a few simple questions and the thread gets derailed by people who want to be right. And if anyone disagrees with them it's because they are rubbish brewers and all judges are rubbish because they're not BJCP qualified judges (even though they were).

I notice that Tommo hasn't posted in the thread since.

 

[Sadfield]

Type @ tommo and answer their question then.

 

[Davegase]

All I am doing is responding to questions asked. That is why it is called a 'Forum"

The question was:
Hi, could someone explain the basics of pressure fermenting to me please? !!!
NOT: Can anyone overwhelm me with reasons not to ferment under pressure !!!

 

[foxy]

Must have got lost in your answers where you were trying to prove me wrong before you attempted to prove yourself right. However, when I search this thread for “saison”, “kolsch” or “true lager” this post is the only one that appears.

If it is all about proving right or wrong, I would just like to see some proof that pressure fermenting at high temperatures and with pressure makes a better beer. Yes it will make a beer and I am happy for those that chose to go down that route keeps the tills ringing, but saying it makes a better beer is debatable which is what it is all about.

I feel sorry for the OP. Yet another thread where they ask a few simple questions and the thread gets derailed by people who want to be right. And if anyone disagrees with them it's because they are rubbish brewers and all judges are rubbish because they're not BJCP qualified judges (even though they were).

I notice that Tommo hasn't posted in the thread since.

I certainly never said the judges were rubbish, just asked if they were certified. For all I know that could have been the only one in the comp. Wouldn't be the first time someone won by default.

The question was:
Hi, could someone explain the basics of pressure fermenting to me please? !!!
NOT: Can anyone overwhelm me with reasons not to ferment under pressure !!!

Post 6.
Where it all began, and before it went awry.
https://www.terifahrendorf.com/Closed-Pressurized-Fermenatation.pdf
A full explanation of why and how to carry out pressure fermentation from a qualified brewer.

 

[Sadfield]

I would just like to see some proof that pressure fermenting at high temperatures and with pressure makes a better beer.

You won't get it. You don't get it.

No one is claiming it makes better beer. It's just one method of making beer, no better, no worse. An alternative way of reducing esters, than lowering temperature. Which itself increases the amount of Co2 in solution.

You've been extremely light on proof as to why no one else is able to make quality beer under pressure, just because you failed.

 

[foxy]

You won't get it. You don't get it.

No one is claiming it makes better beer. It's just one method of making beer, no better, no worse. An alternative way of reducing esters, than lowering temperature. Which itself increases the amount of Co2 in solution.

You've been extremely light on proof as to why no one else is able to make quality beer under pressure, just because you failed.

I have pointed to the proof, check out what a Charlie Bamforth and Jens Eiken Master Brewer has to say, why the professional brewers give it a wide berth, why Gordon Strong or John palmer or any of the respected writers of home brewing don't mention it. It is only some of the home brewers who have been taken in by all the spin on Youtube and other blogs that lays claim that top pressure is better, not necessarily for the home brewer, but certainly for those in the business of home brew supplies.

I think Jamil Zainasheff who is the author of the brewing books, Brewing Classic Styles, Yeast, pod cast host, professional brewer, Certified Beer Judge, award winning home brewer, taken awards in the NHC every year since 2002, with over 20 best in show. I think is more qualified than most homebrewers to say a few words on the subject, no doubt you will know more than him.

Jamil Zainasheff (Heretic Brewing) kindly responded to a query I made in his AMA thread on the topic of high pressure brewing of lagers:

“I have not done a lot of it, but I did experiment with it back in the day and found the results were not as good as normal lager fermentation. We also did a couple Brew Strong shows about the technique, with some sensory data from experiments that John Blichmann did at varying pressures and temperatures.

The idea behind high pressure brewing is to take advantage of the effect increased pressure has in reducing ester production at higher temperatures. If you are running a massive commercial brewery and can pay less for cooling and perhaps turn a tank faster, then that adds up to $$$. Never mind that it doesn't make as good a lager, you were able to make it cheaper, and you assume your customers would rather have cheaper lager than better lager.

It is an interesting idea, that the increase in dissolved CO2 suppresses ester production. If you ferment a beer cold, there is more dissolved CO2 in the beer during most of fermentation. If CO2 is the key, then you should be able to keep just as much CO2 in solution by raising the pressure to account for your higher beer temperature. If your beer temperature is higher, you should see faster yeast activity as well.

I think the reason many homebrewers are interested in it is 1) it is another cool thing to try and 2) many don't have access to proper temperature control for lagers.

The issue is, it doesn't taste as good as a proper made lager. It isn't terrible and I guess, if you really were desperate to make a lager, didn't have refrigeration, and were OK with an OK version of a lager, then it probably does make sense to high pressure brew.”

 

[Sadfield]

For anyone interested in trying pressure fermenting, this is the data from the White/Blichmann experiment. Which clearly shows that the appropriate top pressure will result in similar ester profile without affecting yeast performance.

The one metric they couldn't measure was sulphur. Both White and Blichmann report that they're sensory evaluation was that the cold fermented lager was more sulphury.

Note this is for just one of the many, many beer styles and at the extremes of both temperature and pressure variables. If you are fermenting at room temperature, but want the effect of temperature control at 18°c, maintaining a top pressure of a few psi may be enough to keep esters and diacetyl in check.

Hope the data is still legible. This site always appears to reduce resolution of uploads.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Jamil Zainasheff (Heretic Brewing) kindly responded to a query I made in his AMA thread on the topic of high pressure brewing of lagers:

“I have not done a lot of it, but I did experiment with it back in the day and found the results were not as good as normal lager fermentation...

I like the way that you grabbed a response to another guy's post, then silently slipped it in here and claimed that you'd asked the question

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...co-ask-me-anything.643656/page-5#post-7000761

 

[foxy]

I like the way that you grabbed a response to another guy's post, then silently slipped it in here and claimed that you'd asked the question

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...co-ask-me-anything.643656/page-5#post-7000761

If you had looked at the post properly you would have seen where the post came from. Be more diligent, don’t you ever get sick of wiping egg off your face.

 

[MickDundee]

If you had looked at the post properly you would have seen where the post came from. Be more diligent, don’t you ever get sick of wiping egg off your face.

The original query came from “Jackhorzempa” who appears to be from Pennsylvania. Unless you are saying that Jamil has stock answers that he copies and pasted into various AMA threads in different places?

You also conveniently missed out the paragraph where he promotes the Whitelabs high pressure yeast.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Edited: Maybe Foxy is saying that he also goes by the alias JackHorzempa from Pennsylvania?

 

[Sadfield]

You also conveniently missed out the paragraph where he promotes the Whitelabs high pressure yeast.

And his later post

"It sounds like you are making some fantastic lagers. I would love to taste them. And it sounds like you are totally in sync with how pressure impacts fermentation and are taking full advantage of it. I think all yeast respond to this pressure, some much more than others."

And...

"My only concern with high pressure fermentation is using it to replace cooler fermentation completely. I'm not in favor of 70F lager fermenations. What you are doing I agree with 100%."

Which implies using pressure around near to the yeasts normal operating temperature is a legitimate and useful thing to do. Say, if one was to pressure ferment ales yeasts at around room temperature.

 

[Ninja7]

I just put a black pilsner down in the apollo with a 15 psi puple vale . Presure fermenting is new to me .
Started off with no presure but letting it build .
At min its sitting at 12 degrees room temp .
My qwestion is do i put the heat belt on tonight and set 18 or can i leave at 12 but ferment takes longer but cleaner beer .


Same goes for future could it be femented cold in fridge but under presure then walm at end .
Iv done plenty pilsners over last few years cold at 10 in fridge for 2 weeks till 1020 then heat to 18 to finish off then cold crash .
For me the apollo presure ferment means i can get another pilsner room temp on go why fridge is in use with another .

 

[foxy]

The original query came from “Jackhorzempa” who appears to be from Pennsylvania. Unless you are saying that Jamil has stock answers that he copies and pasted into various AMA threads in different places?

You also conveniently missed out the paragraph where he promotes the Whitelabs high pressure yeast.

That is why I left the AMA at the top of the reply. But it makes no difference. It was to be expected that instead of looking for a reply to what Jamil had to say, which their isnt one. Best thing to do is stop clutching at straws and move on. Use pressure for what it was suggested, carb your beer at the end of fermentation

 

[Sadfield]

That is why I left the AMA at the top of the reply. But it makes no difference.

Only if you feel integrity isn't important.

 

[foxy]

Only if you feel integrity isn't important.

“Makes no difference to those clutching at straws” Drowning in a mire of misinterpretation. If a beer is worth making it is worth making well. Unless one isn’t that bothered about quality.