Poor head retention with both stout and porter

[davidgrace]

I have recently brewed a stout and a porter, and both have poor head retention. When I pour the beer, there is a good head, but it quickly dies so that there is no head at all. Can anyone tell me why this might be, or what I should do to avoid it next time I brew a stout or porter?

 

[Sadfield]

Could any number of reasons. Highly kiln malts should be foam positive. Have a look through the above and see if anything jumps out.

 

[foxy]

I have recently brewed a stout and a porter, and both have poor head retention. When I pour the beer, there is a good head, but it quickly dies so that there is no head at all. Can anyone tell me why this might be, or what I should do to avoid it next time I brew a stout or porter?

What were the recipes?

 

[davidgrace]

View attachment 95384

Could any number of reasons. Highly kiln malts should be foam positive. Have a look through the above and see if anything jumps out.

Thanks for the chart. That gives me some things to consider as I proceed. Having said that, I have been brewing now for a few years, and during that time I have not had any problems at all with head retention. Only with these, my first two attempts with dark ales, have I encountered this problem.

 

[davidgrace]

What were the recipes?

The two recipes are both for 11.5L all grain kits.

11.5L stout

11.5L American Porter

 

[MashBag]

Couple of ideas...
Has your water changed? Yeast need minerals.

Oats in the recipe help.

Soap residue (on anything).

Natural foams are Protein based. Same with bread, so do you have a protein rest which is robbing that?

 

[Sadfield]

I feel there's two possible culprits of robbing your beer of proteins that aid head retention.

1g of Protofloc in 12L might be part of the issue. I'd typically use 0.3g for that batch size.

With no mention in the recipe of any water addition, the acidic dark grains could be dropping your mash pH too low, and out of the desired range.

"Beers like porter and stout include a significant proportion of dark grains to give them their color and flavor. Those grains are quite acidic and their contribution can drive mash pH quite low. While we don’t want wort pH to be greater than about 5.6 for any wort, we don’t want that pH to get too low either. One reason is that low pH enhances the performance of Proteolytic Enzymes in the mash that literally chop up the wort’s long and medium length protein chains into tiny “bodyless” remnants. Too much of that activity is the main cause of thin beer. "

https://www.brunwater.com/articles/adding-body-to-your-stout

 

[davidgrace]

Couple of ideas...
Has your water changed? Yeast need minerals.

Oats in the recipe help.

Soap residue (on anything).

Natural foams are Protein based. Same with bread, so do you have a protein rest which is robbing that?

My water hasn't changed at all. I have done many brews with Yorkshire Water out of the tap and never had a problem with head retention until I brewed these two dark ales.

 

[An Ankoù]

I have recently brewed a stout and a porter, and both have poor head retention.

I have the same difficulty. I'm alright up to, about, the fourth, but after that I tend to lose my head quite rapidly. After the ninth, I've even bee known to fall over.
I've often thought that rigorous practice might help with head retention, but all I seem to get is a headache.

 

[dmtaylor]

What are your mash temperature(s) and time(s)? You're not using a step-mash, are you?

 

[phildo79]

Does the head come back with a swirl of the glass? All CO2 carbed beers will eventually lose their head. Might a pint glass with nucleation help? Or carbing with nitro will eliminate the problem.

Not sure I recall seeing the likes of carapils in stout recipes but that helps with other styles. And as previously mentioned, oats could help.

 

[foxy]

The two recipes are both for 11.5L all grain kits.

11.5L stout

View attachment 95403
11.5L American Porter

View attachment 95404

Are these made-up grain kits David? For your stout (Mashbag mentioned oats) I would change the wheat malt for 400g of flaked barley. It will boost the body and has plenty of foam-positive dextrins.
If you can get the grains bagged separately just mash the base malts with the flaked barley. Do a mash out if possible, if not hot or cold steeping the remaining grains will eliminate the pH problem of being to low if that is an issue.

The same with the Porter, ask for separate bags for fermentable and non-fermentable
grains sub out the crystal (crystal is foam negative) for dextrin malt like carapils.
This is of course if it's a made-up kit and the HBS will package them separately.

 

[Sadfield]

Adding baking soda and reducing protofloc, would be a easy alternative. Preserving the recipe/kit as it was designed.

 

[foxy]

Adding baking soda and reducing protofloc, would be a easy alternative. Preserving the recipe/kit as it was designed.

If one can make a decent beer using pale malts with water out of the tap there is no reason a decent dark beer can be made with water straight from the tap. Also, there is no reason to mash unfermentable grains.
I am assuming that water treatment is not part of the OP's regime, so for him, the easiest solution is steeping the non-fermentable grains. Those kits are designed for one thing and that is to make money, which I have no objection to.

 

[borischarlton]

Something I learnt recently at a Crisp Malt seminar. If you have a boil over in the kettle, or your fermenter overflows due to not enough headspace you are loosing the proteins that are required for foam stability.

 

[Sadfield]

I think I read on Murphy's that you lose future foam potential whenever you create foam, either in the boil, FV or on transfer.

 

[MashBag]

Now you have said it out loud, yes.

Never thought about it before, that said a boilover proof lid stops all that silly malarky for me.