Philip Hammond says there are 'no unemployed people'

[Irishwizard]

Yep, migration (regardless of skin colour or creed) always hits the working poor the hardest.
Wages are driven down, housing becomes unaffordable, essential services like transport, education, healthcare are all overstretched and they have to live with the social problems and crime that go with living among people who are ungrateful, uneducated guests of a country that they have no allegiance to.
And what do the working poor do about this?
The morons vote Labour in droves.
They actually vote for a party that cares more for the foreigners than it does for them!

Ive been saying this for years and getting branded a racist bigot

 

[stevey]

I don't believe you. If they wanted to work, there would be no Eastern Europeans working in our fields and orchards.

Thats not exactly true, most of our seasonal farm work was done by Mothers, in school hours, and kids; trying to earn a bit of extra money in the summer holidays.
Then the rich farmers realised that they could use foreign labour at a fraction of the cost and charge them for accommodation in purpose built sheds or old caravans.
The government now have to top up families pay with tax credits, while saving a pittance on unpaid taxes.

 

[Gunge]

Ive been saying this for years and getting branded a racist bigot

Well that makes at least 3 of us. But the feckless love Labour anyway; they know they'll get looked after by them.

 

[Ajhutch]

There’s actually a possible coherent argument that Brexit fixes all of this. Cheap foreign labour leaves the country (voluntarily or not) and suddenly British farmers can’t staff their operations as British people (like the lad on Gunge’s street) don’t want to work for minimum wage when forty hours a week on minimum wage pays less than the benefits cap. So faced with the choice of a) lowering the benefits cap, b) increasing the minimum wage and c) literally allowing all unemployed people to starve to death, the government of the day will choose a mixture of a and b but mostly b, because the cost of that falls on the private sector and would lose them fewer votes than a. Of course the farmers will, quite reasonably, want to be paid more for their food to compensate for increased wage costs (and the subsidies they will lose after Brexit), but on the other hand they won’t be able to export food as we won’t have any trade deals. We won’t be able to import any food either for the same reason, so farmers will be able to sell more food domestically for the higher price they want. At least the cost is associated with consumption unlike taxes. Young liberal enemy of the people mutineer saboteur remoaning snowflakes like me wouldn’t be able to get avocados any more, but potatoes would cost the same as our avocados do now so hipsters can open potato cafes instead.

Sounds awful to me, but it does sort of tie together.

 

[MyQul]

There’s actually a possible coherent argument that Brexit fixes all of this. Cheap foreign labour leaves the country (voluntarily or not) and suddenly British farmers can’t staff their operations as British people (like the lad on Gunge’s street) don’t want to work for minimum wage when forty hours a week on minimum wage pays less than the benefits cap. So faced with the choice of a) lowering the benefits cap, b) increasing the minimum wage and c) literally allowing all unemployed people to starve to death, the government of the day will choose a mixture of a and b but mostly b, because the cost of that falls on the private sector and would lose them fewer votes than a. Of course the farmers will, quite reasonably, want to be paid more for their food to compensate for increased wage costs (and the subsidies they will lose after Brexit), but on the other hand they won’t be able to export food as we won’t have any trade deals. We won’t be able to import any food either for the same reason, so farmers will be able to sell more food domestically for the higher price they want. At least the cost is associated with consumption unlike taxes. Young liberal enemy of the people mutineer saboteur remoaning snowflakes like me wouldn’t be able to get avocados any more, but potatoes would cost the same as our avocados do now so hipsters can open potato cafes instead.

Sounds awful to me, but it does sort of tie together.

These hipsters are ahead of the game:

Autumn wild mushrooms, spinach, blue cheese & truffle oil on a baked spud. Only �£7.25 :-o

http://www.thepotatoproject.com/

 

[Ajhutch]

These hipsters are ahead of the game:

Autumn wild mushrooms, spinach, blue cheese & truffle oil on a baked spud. Only ��£7.25 :-o

http://www.thepotatoproject.com/

World’s gone mad. I think I’d rather baked beans or tuna mayo

 

[Saisonator]

There’s actually a possible coherent argument that Brexit fixes all of this. Cheap foreign labour leaves the country (voluntarily or not) and suddenly British farmers can’t staff their operations as British people (like the lad on Gunge’s street) don’t want to work for minimum wage when forty hours a week on minimum wage pays less than the benefits cap. So faced with the choice of a) lowering the benefits cap, b) increasing the minimum wage and c) literally allowing all unemployed people to starve to death, the government of the day will choose a mixture of a and b but mostly b, because the cost of that falls on the private sector and would lose them fewer votes than a. Of course the farmers will, quite reasonably, want to be paid more for their food to compensate for increased wage costs (and the subsidies they will lose after Brexit), but on the other hand they won’t be able to export food as we won’t have any trade deals. We won’t be able to import any food either for the same reason, so farmers will be able to sell more food domestically for the higher price they want. At least the cost is associated with consumption unlike taxes. Young liberal enemy of the people mutineer saboteur remoaning snowflakes like me wouldn’t be able to get avocados any more, but potatoes would cost the same as our avocados do now so hipsters can open potato cafes instead.

Sounds awful to me, but it does sort of tie together.

We don't need trade deals to import or export food, we can use WTO tariffs.
The import tariffs will net us more money than export tariffs, so the money from one could subsidise the other.
By the way I voted remain, although I hate the EU as an organisation (love Europe) but I stand behind the vote and the government trying to stop them extorting money from us a a form of punishment.

 

[Saisonator]

These hipsters are ahead of the game:

Autumn wild mushrooms, spinach, blue cheese & truffle oil on a baked spud. Only ��£7.25 :-o

http://www.thepotatoproject.com/

Pure hipster fare.
Like the cafe in the east end that was selling bowls of cereals for £5 upwards a bowl.

 

[MyQul]

Pure hipster fare.
Like the cafe in the east end that was selling bowls of cereals for �£5 upwards a bowl.

They had one of those near where I worked in Kingston- upon-Thames. It closed down after about three months. The eejits who owned it blamed the council :lol:

 

[marshbrewer]

We won’t be able to import any food either for the same reason

Explain? Seriously ~ explain to me why a no deal scenario, which would be WTO rules, will prevent us from importing food, or anything for that matter?

WTO rules set MAXIMUM allowed tariffs that a member country can charge other member countries. They also state other things, such as that you cant charge different member countries different rates. But the crux of it is that we can charge any tariff amount UP TO the WTO maximum.

And that includes zero if we so desire.

So instead of screwing poor African farmers over in order to keep Spanish and French producers in business, we can have lots of their lovely veggies cheaper than they are now, while doing our bit for the developing world through free trade.

I'm not having a go, but this is a myth that the remain side have peddled ad infinitum, despite people like the WTO constantly correcting them.

 

[Irishwizard]

There’s actually a possible coherent argument that Brexit fixes all of this. Cheap foreign labour leaves the country (voluntarily or not) and suddenly British farmers can’t staff their operations as British people (like the lad on Gunge’s street) don’t want to work for minimum wage when forty hours a week on minimum wage pays less than the benefits cap. So faced with the choice of a) lowering the benefits cap, b) increasing the minimum wage and c) literally allowing all unemployed people to starve to death, the government of the day will choose a mixture of a and b but mostly b, because the cost of that falls on the private sector and would lose them fewer votes than a. Of course the farmers will, quite reasonably, want to be paid more for their food to compensate for increased wage costs (and the subsidies they will lose after Brexit), but on the other hand they won’t be able to export food as we won’t have any trade deals. We won’t be able to import any food either for the same reason, so farmers will be able to sell more food domestically for the higher price they want. At least the cost is associated with consumption unlike taxes. Young liberal enemy of the people mutineer saboteur remoaning snowflakes like me wouldn’t be able to get avocados any more, but potatoes would cost the same as our avocados do now so hipsters can open potato cafes instead.

Sounds awful to me, but it does sort of tie together.

Don't quite understand your POV , but Ive had a drink! At the end of the day Ive already made a point of not buying any food from holland, France, peru, africa. at the end of the day I really don't need asparagus or fine beans at this time of the year..... nor strawberries from south africa. I think the supermarkets are going to have to change how they operate.

 

[Ajhutch]

Explain? Seriously ~ explain to me why a no deal scenario, which would be WTO rules, will prevent us from importing food, or anything for that matter?

WTO rules set MAXIMUM allowed tariffs that a member country can charge other member countries. They also state other things, such as that you cant charge different member countries different rates. But the crux of it is that we can charge any tariff amount UP TO the WTO maximum.

And that includes zero if we so desire.

So instead of screwing poor African farmers over in order to keep Spanish and French producers in business, we can have lots of their lovely veggies cheaper than they are now, while doing our bit for the developing world through free trade.

I'm not having a go, but this is a myth that the remain side have peddled ad infinitum, despite people like the WTO constantly correcting them.

Fair point, I got that logic wrong, though WTO does have a most favoured nation concept so you can’t discriminate on tariffs. I think you can do more on quotas though.

 

[Ajhutch]

We don't need trade deals to import or export food, we can use WTO tariffs.
The import tariffs will net us more money than export tariffs, so the money from one could subsidise the other.
By the way I voted remain, although I hate the EU as an organisation (love Europe) but I stand behind the vote and the government trying to stop them extorting money from us a a form of punishment.

If we were charged maximum tariffs to export it wouldn’t be economical so they’d be looking to sell domestically instead, that was my logic

 

[Ken L]

Explain? Seriously ~ explain to me why a no deal scenario, which would be WTO rules, will prevent us from importing food, or anything for that matter?

It's called a straw man argument. It's kinda pathetic really and not even worth responding to.

 

[Ajhutch]

It's called a straw man argument. It's kinda pathetic really and not even worth responding to.

Already acknowledged that piece of logic was wrong

 

[Ajhutch]

Don't quite understand your POV , but Ive had a drink! .

Me too :whistle:

My overarching point of view is that while I’m against Brexit and significantly to the left of the current government, I can see that with political will and a bit of common sense there is a potential path to deal with a number of the issues being discussed in this this thread (cheap overseas workers, Brits that don’t want to do manual labour) that Brexit could be the catalyst for. And if done properly it could make a lot of people happier, which would be a good thing.

 

[MyQul]

Me too :whistle:

My overarching point of view is that while I’m against Brexit and significantly to the left of the current government, I can see that with political will and a bit of common sense there is a potential path to deal with a number of the issues being discussed in this this thread (cheap overseas workers, Brits that don’t want to do manual labour) that Brexit could be the catalyst for. And if done properly it could make a lot of people happier, which would be a good thing.

You're havin a laugh arent you? Political will? Common Sense? The only thing the feckers in charge are interested in is, their careers and lining their pockets .None of em will be putting their heads above the parapets is those two things are at risk

 

[Ajhutch]

You're havin a laugh arent you? Political will? Common Sense? The only thing the feckers in charge are interested in is, their careers and lining their pockets .None of em will be putting their heads above the parapets is those two things are at risk

Well I did say I’d been drinking :lol:

 

[Ken L]

The problem is that while solutions are actually very simple, implementation of them isn't.
Suddenly ending child benefits and WFTC isn't an option, but making them obscelecent and reducing payments for existing recipients year on year is.
Suddenly ending housing benefit isn't an option, but reducing the rate at which it is paid year on year is and would result in landlords being forced to drop their rental charges and eventually divest themselves of their taxpayer funded property portfolios as buy to let ceases to be profitable. This would mean a drop in property prices and young people being able to get on the housing ladder.
Creating a society where people will take work in food factories or seasonal work in agriculture or tourism requires changes to the benefits system.
This is fabric of society stuff and we have a structural problem in that sorting it out takes the sort of skills that anybody who has gone through the higher education system on such policy areas is utterly unfit to provide.

 

[Ajhutch]

The problem is that while solutions are actually very simple, implementation of them isn't.
Suddenly ending child benefits and WFTC isn't an option, but making them obscelecent and reducing payments for existing recipients year on year is.
Suddenly ending housing benefit isn't an option, but reducing the rate at which it is paid year on year is and would result in landlords being forced to drop their rental charges and eventually divest themselves of their taxpayer funded property portfolios as buy to let ceases to be profitable. This would mean a drop in property prices and young people being able to get on the housing ladder.
Creating a society where people will take work in food factories or seasonal work in agriculture or tourism requires changes to the benefits system.
This is fabric of society stuff and we have a structural problem in that sorting it out takes the sort of skills that anybody who has gone through the higher education system on such policy areas is utterly unfit to provide.

I don't disagree with any of that, particularly on property where the taxing landlord profits side of the equation does not appear to be working.

I do though think there's more than just the benefit system that means people don't want to take low paid work. There are people my age who were sold the idea that a university degree would be a path to a richer life, people who in my parents generation wouldn't have gone to uni. They now can't find 'graduate level' work but don't want to take lower paid stuff. The benefits system is obviously a lever government can pull to get individuals to take work, but my sense is something else is needed at a societal level. No idea what though!

Anyway, no easy answers but it's been an interesting evening of discussion, not a locked thread in sight either! Really must go to sleep now, and not because I've got to go to work in the morning.......


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