Persistent Off flavour/aroma driving me insane!

[Gerryjo]

Why? I resisted the temptation to suggest the OP rehydrates the yeast in water before pitching. I know not everybody thinks that's necessary, and, indeed, the sachets are clearly marked, "sprinkle the contents over the surface of the beer" or words to that effect.

I pitch it dry and only liquid or reused pitched wet.....hehe

 

[Dads_Ale]

How do you use your whirlpool paddle?
Do you use an electric drill and go at it like a mad thing? I (and a couple of others) have found that if you introduce too much air at the hot stage after the boil this can give some off flavours.

 

[Drunkula]

I can see @Drunkula twitching as he reads your statement

When I was pushing that every day there were a few people who I knew it was really annoying so I kept rattling that tambourine but I know one of them eventually worked out my schtick (took bloody long enough) and there are a few that really don't like me and have either put me on ignore or just don't bother replying so it's not worth doing any more, no matter how right it is. I was targetting the ones with the mentality of "Eeeeee well I've never notice any difference, Jean. If I throw me whippet out the window he might brekkk a leg but eee's still whippet at end uttt dayyyy."

So I've stopped wiggling that fishing rod unless it's to give someone some genuine info on why it's worth doing..... and I've got a trauling net now somewhere trolling anti-vaxxers and the hate and anger you can get going is amazing. My inbox overfloweth with ranting.

 

[Gerryjo]

When I was pushing that every day there were a few people who I knew it was really annoying so I kept rattling that tambourine but I know one of them eventually worked out my schtick (took bloody long enough) and there are a few that really don't like me and have either put me on ignore or just don't bother replying so it's not worth doing any more, no matter how right it is. I was targetting the ones with the mentality of "Eeeeee well I've never notice any difference, Jean. If I throw me whippet out the window he might brekkk a leg but eee's still whippet at end uttt dayyyy."

So I've stopped wiggling that fishing rod unless it's to give someone some genuine info on why it's worth doing..... and I've got a trauling net now somewhere trolling anti-vaxxers and the hate and anger you can get going is amazing. My inbox overfloweth with ranting.

Notty Notty....

 

[Drunkula]

Something I picked up in the "Yeast" book about sprinkling onto the beer killing off half the cells. But if the manufacturers say a sachet's enough for a 5 gallon batch then they've probably accounted for that. Except for Youngs. They provide 5g sachets for a five gallon batch. i reckon that's too little to be on the safe side.

Yeah, on commercial packets they mention rehydration but for homebrew plebs it's too risky because most of them are a bit dim and would mess it up. Beer kits are essentially the pot noodles of brewing and you just snip off the corner of the little sachet and squeeze it in. If I was selling mince I wouldn't say to make up a bechamel** for a lasagne I just say buy a bloody jar of white sauce.

There's the link that's good for backup : More on Yeast Rehydration

** Ran out of milk while making a bechamel the other day and used some dried milk I had and combined with the msg it tasted just like mushrooms. It was amazing.

 

[Gingerbrews]

One thing I would add, is don't trust the temp reading on the Brewzilla. Mine is substantially out. Always check it with a calibrated thermometer

 

[Bill_g]

Sounds to me nothing like yeast pitching issues but a persistent bacterial infection in the fermenter. My vote would go with those who have already suggested using a brand new cheap plastic bin fermenter for a brew and see how it goes.
Might be worth closely inspecting your fermzilla for manufacturing defects, cracks or scratches. But I'd take it out of the equation to see what happens.
Also agree with comments about 10 minute boil to sterilise the previously cleaned chiller rather than long soak in a sanitiser.

 

[DocAnna]

Sounds to me nothing like yeast pitching issues but a persistent bacterial infection in the fermenter. My vote would go with those who have already suggested using a brand new cheap plastic bin fermenter for a brew and see how it goes.
Might be worth closely inspecting your fermzilla for manufacturing defects, cracks or scratches. But I'd take it out of the equation to see what happens.
Also agree with comments about 10 minute boil to sterilise the previously cleaned chiller rather than long soak in a sanitiser.

Reading the whole thread this is my thought too. The fermenter is the one constant that could harbour infection which wouldn't seem likely to be either killed by heat or suppressed in the keg by alcohol. I also agree that the PBW washing seems a bit excessive for parts that aren't visibly soiled - and since this particular cleaner generates oxygen and the off flavour may be oxidation, then this is also a prime candidate for that particular flavour. Best of luck - I've my own off bitterness in the last two brews to deal with so trying to work out something similar myself .

Anna

 

[An Ankoù]

I don't think the OP is over cleaning, rather he or she is just following the instructions on the PBW label:
Product details
PBW is an environmentally friendly alkali cleaner. Safe for use on metals, rubber gaskets, tubing, plastic parts, and your skin.
Removes tough, caked-on debris and rinses clean.
PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) is a patented alkali cleaner originally developed for Coors, now widely used in commercial breweries across North America. Use 1 to 2 ounces per gallon for cleaning kettles, 3/4 ounce per gallon for fermenters, kegs, tanks, and other equipment. Soak equipment overnight in PBW solution; rinse the following morning - no scrubbing required! Will not damage rubber gaskets, soft metals, or your skin. PBW can effectively clean items that can be reached with a brush or sponge, and is strong enough to remove thick, difficult, caked-on organic soils.
Keep a bucket of PBW solution around for cleaning small parts when needed. Recirculate a hot solution of PBW through your pump and counter flow chiller to remove hidden debris. Perfect for cleaning kegs or bottles before sanitizing. PBW is environmentally friendly, biodegradable, and will not harm septic systems. It also works great as a household cleaner too.
Rinses clean leaving equipment ready for sanitizing with a dedicated sanitizer like Star San.

The only reference to metallic flavours in the beer lead back to metal contamination from either aluminium or iron. If the Brewzilla were to lose its passivation, for example, by cleaning with a chlorine based cleaner, it could well taint the beer.
Loss of Passivation in your stainless pots
can cause metallic flavors in beer
When stainless steel is cleaned without passivation, (oxidizing the surface to produce a layer of protective oxide) the unprotected steel can also cause off flavors.

Cleaning your stainless steel pots with chlorine is the most common cause for stainless steel losing it’s passivation. It attacks the chromium oxide layer and removes it thereby removing the pots protection against rust.

Using a steel scrubber on your stainless pots will also remove it’s protective oxide layer. Once you have lost passivation (the oxidized layer that protects stainless steel from rust) you will have to re-passivate your stainless steel to keep it from rusting.
https://winning-homebrew.com/metallic-flavors-in-beer.html
Is there any contact with aluminium or iron at any stage? Is your immersion chiller unpassivated SS?

Just a thought.

 

[moto748]

Normally fill the fermentor from a height, sprinkle and close the lid. Works for me

I do that too! As for the yeast, a case of, when all else fails, follow the instructions on the packet!

But saying that, the re-hydrating thing interests me, because I always apply the same practice in baking: modern 'instant' dried bakers' yeast always says, mix into the flour and dry ingredients. Well, that does work, but nevertheless, when I am making bread or pizza, I always start the yeast in a jug with some warm water and spoonful of sugar. It's no hardship, it only takes 15 minutes, and I believe it helps to clear that yeasty, 'home-made'flavour from bread.

 

[chrisbrooker]

Cheers for all of your suggestions guys, I'll take @An Ankoù up on his yeast advice, if I can improve practices across the board it can't be a bad thing. @Dads_Ale No I haven't stored kegs with Chemsan, I fill and then push out shortly afterwards. As mentioned further up the thread though I have soaked my chiller in Chemsan before use, which is something else that I can cut out of my process.

As 2 of the three beers tasted passable at FG (the third tasted really decent), I'm going to try swapping out the fermenter next to see if that is the source of a persistent infection. I've bought a brew bucket and siphon and have bits and bobs for a kveik ESB so to save wasting more money will brew and bucket that, filling a few flip tops in addition to the keg.

I'm well aware that I've been a bit of a plank in the way that I've gone about this, I would have been much better off brewing and chucking SMASH brews until I managed one that didn't taste foul. Will let you guys know how the next one turns out and go from there.

 

[An Ankoù]

I'm well aware that I've been a bit of a plank in the way that I've gone about this, I would have been much better off brewing and chucking SMASH brews until I managed one that didn't taste foul. Will let you guys know how the next one turns out and go from there.

Not at all. You've encountered a problem and it's been a pleasure to see such attention to detail. This sort of thing happens to all of us, one way or another, sooner or later. Good luck with your next brew.
A libation to the gods might be efficacious in eliminating any supernatural explanations.

 

[Gerryjo]

Don't be so hard on yourself and besides take it as a positive as you'll learn something from and let's face it if we didn't make mistakes we'd all be perfect and this forum wouldn't exist as we'd all read books and know exactly what we were doing....aye right....

 

[chrisbrooker]

Hi All,

It's happened again, that's four in a row. This time I'm using a brand new and meticulously cleaned bucket fermenter (and so it doesn't look as though the Fermzilla was the perp. as I suspected). I do think that I have pinpointed the point in the process where the infection has taken hold however, and it's weird.

There were a couple of issues on Brewday, I boiled off too much, leading to a hike in OG, and then fermented with a different strain of voss to the recipe, meaning a very slight under-attenuation. I tasted the brew after it had finished however and was very happy with the result (ESB, malty with nice orangey esters from the voss, no off flavours whatsoever). Immediately after tasting I cold crashed from 37c to 19c overnight, and then took it down to 2c the next morning. I was using a 3 piece airlock during fermentation, and switched this for a s shaped for the cold crash, regularly checking this to make sure that there was still sanitiser present in the airlock.

I tasted again a day after cold crashing was complete, and the beer had changed significantly. The off flavour/aroma from previous brews was there, and much of the character of the beer had disappeared. Elsewhere I've heard that infections disappear at lower temps, but this doesn't seem to be the case here, I'm pretty confident that all of my brews, both in Fermzilla (spunding valve) and bucket (airlock) have gone wrong at this stage. I'm confident that this is not (solely) due to oxidation, as I was previously using pressure ferm/transfer.

One point that I didn't think to mention before is my fermentation fridge, which is now the only piece of cold side equipment that I have not swapped out. I got this second hand off of Gumtree, and when I picked it up it absolutely stank. Someone had obviously spilt milk in it which was still present. The fridge had been unplugged for quite some time in a warm room prior to collection. I absolutely blitzed this with bleach, but a slight smell remains. I didn't really consider that this would be an issue, could this explain the incredible bad luck that I seem to have been experiencing, despite every attempt at sanitation? I still find it weird how this would only affect my beer post FG, and only become (noticeably) present once cold crashed.

I really appreciate you guys helping me out, apologies for asking you to do so again. I'm considering buying a new fridge as I want to eliminate this as a possibility. I was so bloody embarrassed when my wife told her family on a zoom meeting that I've cocked up another batch, and had to sit through them all laughing at me! I just want to actually have a reasonable tasting beer to show them to prove I'm not a complete idiot!

 

[chrisbrooker]

*just to add, I have never had a lag after pitching, fermentation has always started within 12 hours. This batch the voss was bubbling around an hour after pitching!

 

[The Baron]

I really feel for you and the ridicule is just not on.
Going forward the off milk could produce lactobacillus but I would have thought the bleach would have killed that. Lets hope some of the profs can come up with a feasible suggestion

 

[samale]

Next brew don't use the fridge. Do a cheap smash beer. Ferment at room temp and don't cold crash. It will eliminate the fridge.

 

[DocAnna]

Seems v odd to have bacteria spoil beer that quick especially when cold?? As for cleaning up the fridge, if you do decide to clean it again then using a fine mist spray of hydrogen peroxide should sort out any residual bacterial contamination and is effectively no rinse if left for a day or so. Just don't breathe in the mist.

Anna

 

[chrisbrooker]

@DocAnna I thought so too, normally people seem to have a chance to drink at least some of a batch before the infection makes it undrinkable, wheras this has taken hold within a week!

@samale That's a ludicrously simple test that I hadn't even thought of!! I have some pale ale malt, and a sachet of US05 lying around, so will pick up some citra and give that a go.

 

[UKSkydiver]

I have my own demons, but thought occurred whilst reading this. If you can, bottle a couple and see if they are same / different.

I wish you the best of luck.