Perceived Bitterness

[MyQul]

I am intrigued by the hop tea idea - how does it compare, in your opinion, to late dry-hopping?

Unfortunately I couldn't tell you as I've never dry hopped. I've always been worried about infection (from opening the FV rather than the hops themselves)

 

[clibit]

I am intrigued by the hop tea idea - how does it compare, in your opinion, to late dry-hopping?

Lengthy discussion...

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=55721

 

[clibit]

Unfortunately I couldn't tell you as I've never dry hopped. I've always been worried about infection (from opening the FV rather than the hops themselves)

That's too much worry I think.

 

[MyQul]

That's too much worry I think.

I think your probably right. The other reason I haven't dry hopped is because up until now I've mostly made dark beers which you normally dont dry hop

 

[ezraburke]

Lengthy discussion...

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=55721

Clibit, excellent post. I've looked at hop tea as a replacement for dry hopping and this has given me the impetus to push for it in the next repeated recipe we do.

 

[Covrich]

I have been doing more 80 degree hop stands for 20 or so minutes in recent times, but I do not elimitae the late boil additions.. I still have 5 minute additions at least and sometimes 10 minute.

Does hop stand fade the same as dry hop and hop tea?

 

[clibit]

I have been doing more 80 degree hop stands for 20 or so minutes in recent times, but I do not elimitae the late boil additions.. I still have 5 minute additions at least and sometimes 10 minute.

Does hop stand fade the same as dry hop and hop tea?

Good question. My feeling is that it fades but not to the same extent, but I'm not certain.

 

[clibit]

Clibit, excellent post. I've looked at hop tea as a replacement for dry hopping and this has given me the impetus to push for it in the next repeated recipe we do.

I don't think you'll replace dry hopping cos they are different, but you could get a boost from a hop tea, which is different I think because of the heat and short time span for water/hop contact.

 

[Covrich]

Good question. My feeling is that it fades but not to the same extent, but I'm not certain.

I have that same feeling as you.. But because of this I think it is still worth putting in at least one late boil addition.

I don't like the idea of bunging all hops in one stand only for them to diminish.. adding depth at various times seems a little more logical to me

 

[clibit]

I agree. I'm mostly adding some hops late boil plus some sort of hop addition after the beer has cooled, either at or below 80C in the kettle, or dry, or hop tea when I bottle, or a combination.

But I'm not really looking to emulate the really hop dense beers that some of the US breweries produce. I like the interplay of tasty hops, malts and yeasts, and my goal is to master beers that combine all three. Which means plenty of hop flavour and bitterness, but not losing the malt and yeast contributions.

 

[Notlaw]

I agree. I'm mostly adding some hops late boil plus some sort of hop addition after the beer has cooled, either at or below 80C in the kettle, or dry, or hop tea when I bottle, or a combination.

But I'm not really looking to emulate the really hop dense beers that some of the US breweries produce. I like the interplay of tasty hops, malts and yeasts, and my goal is to master beers that combine all three. Which means plenty of hop flavour and bitterness, but not losing the malt and yeast contributions.

Mastering the brewing Holy Trinity... you don't ask for much.!! :wha:

 

[clibit]

I know! But actually it's not rocket science, you mainly need to understand which hops, malts and yeasts you like, and decide how strong and how bitter you want the beer to be. And how much body. You can start by naming the commercial beers you like and finding out what they are made from, the IBUs etc. Lots of experimentation required, but that's half the fun cos you get beer to enjoy!

 

[Notlaw]

I know! But actually it's not rocket science, you mainly need to understand which hops, malts and yeasts you like, and decide how strong and how bitter you want the beer to be. And how much body. You can start by naming the commercial beers you like and finding out what they are made from, the IBUs etc. Lots of experimentation required, but that's half the fun cos you get beer to enjoy!

I've been Googling beers A LOT since I started for hops, malts and any other info I could find. I'm up to about 10 pages in an A5 notebook of all the info I could find on the beers I like.!

 

[geetee]

Since this post started out as perceived bitterness I thought I would contibute something I have posted here before purely regarding the utilisation of bittering hops, not flavour addition.

The alpha acid contents in bittering hops are utilised by boiling, the boil isomerises the alpha acids to iso-alpha acids which is the active bittering component. To achieve maximum isomerisation a lengthy boil circa 60 minutes is required. When I say maximum utilisation this is in the region of 30 - 35% of alpha acids present will be converted for bitterness purposes.

Addition of late hops, say 5 minutes only give 5 minutes boiling which drastically reduces the conversion and thus any bitterness is minimised. It is hard to quantify the utilisation of late addition but say they are fresh hops and with a 5 minute boil you may achieve 5- 10% conversion.....that is 5-10% of the original maximum contribution of 30ish%
So with everything in your favour you may get an addition 1-2 iBU from a late hop addition, but this is nor predictable.

For this reason I calculate my bitterness calculation manually*and only using the initial bittering charge. Any late bitterness will be minimal and negligible. Steeping hops at 80°C or less will NOT isomerise the alpha acids and will not add bitterness.

During my Brewlab course we would routinely calculate the bitterness using first hops only and the finished beer would then be analysed for bitterness and the correlation was very good within 2-3 units so I know this method to work

 

[clibit]

Thanks geetee. I did once make a beer that I threw lots of high alpha flameout hops into, and it was extremely bitter, much more so than the bittering hop addition would account for. I don't have a wort chiller but cooled it in the sink, it was a half sized batch.

 

[rodwha]

I agree. I'm mostly adding some hops late boil plus some sort of hop addition after the beer has cooled, either at or below 80C in the kettle, or dry, or hop tea when I bottle, or a combination.

But I'm not really looking to emulate the really hop dense beers that some of the US breweries produce. I like the interplay of tasty hops, malts and yeasts, and my goal is to master beers that combine all three. Which means plenty of hop flavour and bitterness, but not losing the malt and yeast contributions.

We have a local brewery that didn't care to make an IPA, but with them being the most popular they designed a very unique one that seems a bit like a hybrid between an American and British IPA.

They used Maris Otter, Munich, and typical American 2-row and didn't give it the overly hopped bomb most do. It's an excellent beer IMO that showcases the unique malt flavor with a nice hop presence.

 

[rodwha]

I've messed around with the same recipe a bit. First I tried half my IBUs from a bittering addition and then the rest from 5 min additions from 15 mins onwards. I then tried increasing the bittering addition and only 5 min 0 min and dry. I then tried only 0 and dry.

I perceived the 15, 10, 5, 0 and dry(first attempt) to have more flavour and the last attempt with only 0 and dry to have least.

Basically this was the opposite of what I was expecting as I though increasing the bittering additions and then taking the same amount of flavor hops and pushing them in later would provide more flavour.

As a result I'm going to try my next batch with no dedicated bittering addition. I plan to make up all of my IBU's from late additions. I'm actually going to base it around the chart posted. Thinking of only additions at 25min onwards.

For me bitterness and aroma are easy to achieve but maximising flavour seems elusive. I've come to the conclusion (perhaps incorrectly) that making more IBUs from late additions = more flavour.

This is what made sense to me, and was advised by a few people.

We know that 10-30 min additions give flavor, and 0-10 min additions give aroma. Since these also give IBUs it only made sense to me to use them to help achieve my IBUs.

And we know that dry hop aroma fades rather quickly, though I'm still unclear about whirlpooling/hop standing, so why drop all of your eggs in one basket that may be more disappointing over time?

The reason my IBUs are so high is that I hadn't been doing whirlpools until recently and my 70-80 IBU IPAs were not as hop flavorful as expected despite the small bittering addition. That led me to the whirlpool.

 

[rodwha]

It's interesting this cos the science suggests that any boiling will remove all the oils and that adding hops below 80C will maximise oil retention. But my experience suggests that late boil hops do add depth of flavour. And, for example, the hops that provide high myrcene levels deliver the myrcene flavours effectively with late boil additions and without any post boil hops, despite what science suggests. Why is that flavour not all boiled away? Is there some other science to explain this? I actually believe that 60 minute hops provide some hop flavour too. If you use certain hops this is particularly evident, Chinook being a good example. If you make a beer with just one hop addition at 60 minutes, a Chinook bittered beer will taste different to a Challenger bittered beer.

I found the following post on a thread on HBT about the use of hop teas made in a cafetiere after fermentation::


"Your statements regarding hop oil retention are very similar to advice that got from Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River Brewing during one of my visits to the brewery. Vinnie advised me to focus my hop additions after fermentation. He said for me to chill the beer to drop the yeast, add hops and let them sit for one to two weeks.
As I can remember, he felt that the yeast absorbed some of the hop oils, thus flavor and it was essential to get the yeast out of the way to allow the hop flavor remain in the beer.
What I have tried with these experiments to combine the technique of getting the yeast out beer and extracting the hop flavor with hot water similar to a hopback that contains the aroma. I liken the making of a hop tea, to making my own hop oil extract that I add to the beer.
So far, I an very happy with the results. It has proven to be a very efficient way to add hop flavor and aroma to the beer."

I've added hop teas myself, at bottling time, and found they give a significant boost to flavour and aroma, but that it fades relatively quickly. It's good for beers you will consume within a month or two. Maybe MyQul and others can share their experiences. The benefit comes from leaving this hop tea addition to the last minute, when the yeast cannot remove any hop compounds. I've generally added boiling water to the hops, rather than water at 80C or below. I often do hop stands at 80C.

I'm still unsure about how to get the most from my hops, but I feel there is value in all kinds of additions, last 20 mins, flame out, 80C hop stand, dry hop and hop teas. They all achieve something different. The choice of hopping technique will depend on the beer you are making, the style, and what kind of hop flavour and aroma you want in that particular beer.

This is precisely how I view this. To say that any amount of boiling would annihilate the oils delivering the flavors and aromas is ridiculous as we have plenty of beers with late hop additions that provide just that.

It may well be that the act of boiling reduces them in comparison, and we certainly know the longer you boil them the greater the reduction, but they aren't driven off by a mere boil or high temperature.

I've not omitted all late hops with only a whirlpool to compare so I'm unclear how say 2 ounces (56 g) of a citrusy hop compares in a 15 min addition to that of a whirlpool. Is the amount of flavor similar? Which lasts longer? Is the flavor itself different? My guess would be that they are different on all 3 questions.

 

[rodwha]

Since this post started out as perceived bitterness I thought I would contibute something I have posted here before purely regarding the utilisation of bittering hops, not flavour addition.

The alpha acid contents in bittering hops are utilised by boiling, the boil isomerises the alpha acids to iso-alpha acids which is the active bittering component. To achieve maximum isomerisation a lengthy boil circa 60 minutes is required. When I say maximum utilisation this is in the region of 30 - 35% of alpha acids present will be converted for bitterness purposes.

Addition of late hops, say 5 minutes only give 5 minutes boiling which drastically reduces the conversion and thus any bitterness is minimised. It is hard to quantify the utilisation of late addition but say they are fresh hops and with a 5 minute boil you may achieve 5- 10% conversion.....that is 5-10% of the original maximum contribution of 30ish%
So with everything in your favour you may get an addition 1-2 iBU from a late hop addition, but this is nor predictable.

For this reason I calculate my bitterness calculation manually*and only using the initial bittering charge. Any late bitterness will be minimal and negligible. Steeping hops at 80°C or less will NOT isomerise the alpha acids and will not add bitterness.

During my Brewlab course we would routinely calculate the bitterness using first hops only and the finished beer would then be analysed for bitterness and the correlation was very good within 2-3 units so I know this method to work

Interesting!

And that nearly sums up what I noticed the one time I omitted the traditional bittering charge for a 30 min addition (along with a 20, 10, and 5 min). There was no real bitter to it despite what the numbers claimed. It was a very strange IPA and one I won't do again.

It's claimed that even a whirlpool adds IBUs. Something along the idea of 1/3 to 1/4 what it would give in a boil. I'm uncertain how this was shown, but in regards to your testing and my one time experience I'd have to say it's not the same thing as a true bittering addition.

 

[Covrich]

This is another opportunity for a exbeeriment

Brew 3 batches with say 50-100 grams of later hop additions (depending on batch obv)

1) all late hops are in the boil
2) all late hops are post boil
3) 50/50 of the above

Then measure the out comes every few weeks side by side.. I would guess 2 will have a bigger younger fresh burst but will diminish with aging, 1 will perhaps be more consistent throughout the process with a less than hop assult stage, and 3 somewhere in the middle?

I think we all know dry hop diminishes after a month or 2 (depends on its storage).. I remember doing youngs AAA kit which had a lovely grapefruit dry hop which really lifted the kit into a nice fresh hop burst, but after about 3 months the hop started to fade and when nearly 4 months it was like someone flicked a switch and what was left was not great