Off flavours

[NeipaNutter]

Yep. That does sound like the water. I haven't used Starsan, but try rinsing it out- just in case. I would go for the bottled water experiment. Tesco's Ashbeck seems to be favourite on your side of the Channel. If that doesn't make a difference them we need to look elsewhere.

Starsan is like the industry standard in homebrewing and is a no rinse sanitizer. No one else has any issues with it so I can't imagine it would be that. I have tried bottled water once but it was for a neipa and it oxidised really quickly. Can't recall it having that taste though.

 

[NeipaNutter]

No worries.

As @An Ankoù says - what does "that taste" taste like? Twang, sour, cardboard, funky, butter, banana, peardrops, cabbage. But to name a few descriptors... There are lots of them.

10L batches means lots of trub, typically, do you find there's a lot of sediment in the bottom of your bottles?

Really hard to describe. I can't compare it to any other taste but really I'm not very good at that kind of thing. I wouldn't say there's lots of trub in the bottles. I rack to a bottling bucket first, leaving the trub behind

 

[Ghillie]

Really hard to describe. I can't compare it to any other taste but really I'm not very good at that kind of thing. I wouldn't say there's lots of trub in the bottles. I rack to a bottling bucket first, leaving the trub behind

Impossible to tell if you're unable to describe it.

 

[JonBrew]

Water issues sound like a not unreasonable shout initially but what doesn't add up is @NeipaNutter is saying the beer prior to packaging tastes good but after carbonating develops the problem.

Astringency isn't a bad shout either but, again, why would you not notice it prior to packaging? Unless the carbonation was somehow amplifying it. Worth noting that astringency is not a taste, it's a sensation. A dry puckering sensation - like the kind you get from dry red wines or over brewed tea (where it comes from tannins).

My money is on oxidation/beer staling. Just because it doesn't look oxidised doesn't mean it isn't. I find that oxidation in pale hoppy beers can often come through as a slightly harsh sweetness. The kind you get from hard sweeties that catches at the back of your tongue.

Overall though, I agree with what @Ghillie says. If you can describe it accurately, and due to current circumstances cant really share it with anyone, it'll be very hard to pinpoint.

 

[An Ankoù]

Water issues sound like a not unreasonable shout initially but what doesn't add up is @NeipaNutter is saying the beer prior to packaging tastes good but after carbonating develops the problem.

Astringency isn't a bad shout either but, again, why would you not notice it prior to packaging? Unless the carbonation was somehow amplifying it. Worth noting that astringency is not a taste, it's a sensation. A dry puckering sensation - like the kind you get from dry red wines or over brewed tea (where it comes from tannins).

My money is on oxidation/beer staling. Just because it doesn't look oxidised doesn't mean it isn't. I find that oxidation in pale hoppy beers can often come through as a slightly harsh sweetness. The kind you get from hard sweeties that catches at the back of your tongue.

Overall though, I agree with what @Ghillie says. If you can describe it accurately, and due to current circumstances cant really share it with anyone, it'll be very hard to pinpoint.

In which case it might be a good idea to cut out the bottling bucket and prime the bottles directly. Even bottle directly from primary if the yeast bed is compact enough. Just to see if it is that. I know there's been a long debate on batch priming or not, but without purging, it's just another oportunity for oxidation.

 

[NeipaNutter]

Water issues sound like a not unreasonable shout initially but what doesn't add up is @NeipaNutter is saying the beer prior to packaging tastes good but after carbonating develops the problem.

Astringency isn't a bad shout either but, again, why would you not notice it prior to packaging? Unless the carbonation was somehow amplifying it. Worth noting that astringency is not a taste, it's a sensation. A dry puckering sensation - like the kind you get from dry red wines or over brewed tea (where it comes from tannins).

My money is on oxidation/beer staling. Just because it doesn't look oxidised doesn't mean it isn't. I find that oxidation in pale hoppy beers can often come through as a slightly harsh sweetness. The kind you get from hard sweeties that catches at the back of your tongue.

Overall though, I agree with what @Ghillie says. If you can describe it accurately, and due to current circumstances cant really share it with anyone, it'll be very hard to pinpoint.

But surely oxidation doesn't happen that quickly and wouldn't happen with every single brew? I opened one yesterday after only 4 days in the bottle just cause I was curious. There wasnt much carbonation as you'd expect but it didn't taste anything like it did before bottling. I'm gonna open a couple of others later and try to make some tasting notes.

 

[JonBrew]

But surely oxidation doesn't happen that quickly and wouldn't happen with every single brew? I opened one yesterday after only 4 days in the bottle just cause I was curious. There wasnt much carbonation as you'd expect but it didn't taste anything like it did before bottling. I'm gonna open a couple of others later and try to make some tasting notes.

In terms of it happening within 4 days, I agree it's not hugely likely unless you're introducing a lot of oxygen during bottling, but it could also depend on the style being produced. NEIPA for example are terrible for showing oxidation particularly if bottle conditioned - they could easily start to show signs within a week.

In your OP you said the problem was effecting almost all your brews but you also said you could only notice it in pale beers. So are you mainly brewing pale ales, IPA, NEIPA?

Does the off flavour get worse over time or is it just there from after the point of bottling and stay the same?

Maybe it would help if you shared the recipes of the beers you feel have been worst effected by this issue and give us a real granular step by step of your brewing process, particularly around packaging. For example, is your bottling wand spring loaded? When using those if you start slowly pushing the tip of the filler down against the bottom of the bottle as you begin to fill you can often get enough air introduced to see foam on the surface of the beer as it fills in the bottle. This was something I noticed in my own brewing and I felt it was contributing to oxidation issues.

 

[foxy]

I wish I could send off my beers to someone but with the current situation I don't think I'll be able to do that for a while. What I find so strange is that the sample always tastes great on bottling day so I can only assume it's something going on during priming that's causing this off flavour. I'm careful not to splash the wort so I don't think it's oxidation. And all the off flavours I've read about seem like they should be apparent before bottling.

Which still leads me to believe it is astringency, the best solution is to look at your brewing regime, if you are buying the malt already milled check it isn't being milled to fine, don't leave any grain in the kettle during the boil.(one reason to check the milling) don't oversparge, going by your name you may be in favour of heavily hopped beers, another source of astringency.
As for the taste difference in taste from bottling day to tasting the carbonated beer, the polyphenols are dormant with the yeast the carbonated beer will lift them much the same as hop aroma in carbonated versus flat beer.
I recently made an APA for a comp, I stuffed up the hop additions so made it again, getting closer to the comp date. After a week in the bottle everything tasted fine entered the beer by the entry date, so still about 3 weeks to go for the comp date. After 2 weeks in the bottle tried the beer and it was astringent, only slightly but definitely there. I mill my own grain, I do full volume mash so not much chance of getting the astringency from there so I put it down to the dry hopping.
As you said to early for oxidation and that starts with a sweeter taste rather than harsh.

 

[NeipaNutter]

In terms of it happening within 4 days, I agree it's not hugely likely unless you're introducing a lot of oxygen during bottling, but it could also depend on the style being produced. NEIPA for example are terrible for showing oxidation particularly if bottle conditioned - they could easily start to show signs within a week.

In your OP you said the problem was effecting almost all your brews but you also said you could only notice it in pale beers. So are you mainly brewing pale ales, IPA, NEIPA?

Does the off flavour get worse over time or is it just there from after the point of bottling and stay the same?

Maybe it would help if you shared the recipes of the beers you feel have been worst effected by this issue and give us a real granular step by step of your brewing process, particularly around packaging. For example, is your bottling wand spring loaded? When using those if you start slowly pushing the tip of the filler down against the bottom of the bottle as you begin to fill you can often get enough air introduced to see foam on the surface of the beer as it fills in the bottle. This was something I noticed in my own brewing and I felt it was contributing to oxidation issues.

Yeah mostly pale ales. Tried a neipa a couple of times but they would only be good for a couple of weeks before oxidising so I decided to leave it till I can sort a kegging system out. My recipes usually involve pale malt and some light crystal. Sometimes flaked oats or wheat malt if I want more protein in the grist. I use tap water. I put a quarter of a campden tablet in while the water is heating. I figured people doing 5 gallon batches put half a tablet in so I should be okay with a quarter. I mash in a stainless steel pot in a stainless steel mesh basket. I boil for 60 minutes then cool with a homemade copper immersion chiller. I ferment in either a bucket or pet carboy, or sometimes in a glass demijohn if I'm just doing a 5 Litre batch. I usually batch prime in a bottling bucket, I make a solution with dextrose and use a spring loaded wand. I have noticed some bubbling from the wand when bottling but always thought it was minimal. I use either crown caps or swing tops, I've had the same taste with both.
Is it possible that chlorine or chloramines in the water I'm using to sanitize could be causing this? Do other people treat their priming/sanitizing water?

 

[JonBrew]

Is it possible that chlorine or chloramines in the water I'm using to sanitize could be causing this? Do other people treat their priming/sanitizing water?

I wouldn't have thought so. I don't treat the water I use to make up stars an solution.

As @foxy says, it could be hopping issue. What kind rate do you hop/dry hop at.

Definitely worth getting hold of a water report at some pH testing strips to test your mash pH etc. Tannin extraction from grain (which can cause astringency) is a function of pH and temperature, i.e. too hot and too high a pH. The strips aren't bang accurate but they're good enough to check you're in the right range.

 

[NeipaNutter]

I wouldn't have thought so. I don't treat the water I use to make up stars an solution.

As @foxy says, it could be hopping issue. What kind rate do you hop/dry hop at.

Definitely worth getting hold of a water report at some pH testing strips to test your mash pH etc. Tannin extraction from grain (which can cause astringency) is a function of pH and temperature, i.e. too hot and too high a pH. The strips aren't bang accurate but they're good enough to check you're in the right range.

I don't think I'm over hopping, apart from the first neipa I made which had about 30g a litre in but actually turned out amazing .
One of the beers which had this taste is the American IPA from the Greg Hughes book and I followed the recipe scaled down to 10 litres. I also try to add dry hops while fermentation is still active so the yeast eats up any oxygen that might be introduced.
I'm going to order some pH strips today just in case.
I'm also thinking maybe it could be an infection in my bottling bucket? The fact that the beer tastes great from the fv would support this. I'm going to bottle the next one straight from the fermenter and see if that helps.
Another thought I had is maybe there's residual dishwasher detergent in the bottles. I do rinse them afterwards but I'll hand wash them from now on just in case. Thanks for the help everyone

 

[dad_of_jon]

I don't think I'm over hopping, apart from the first neipa I made which had about 30g a litre in but actually turned out amazing .
One of the beers which had this taste is the American IPA from the Greg Hughes book and I followed the recipe scaled down to 10 litres. I also try to add dry hops while fermentation is still active so the yeast eats up any oxygen that might be introduced.
I'm going to order some pH strips today just in case.
I'm also thinking maybe it could be an infection in my bottling bucket? The fact that the beer tastes great from the fv would support this. I'm going to bottle the next one straight from the fermenter and see if that helps.
Another thought I had is maybe there's residual dishwasher detergent in the bottles. I do rinse them afterwards but I'll hand wash them from now on just in case. Thanks for the help everyone

I clean my bottles in the dishwasher then rinse out twice then in the oven. I batch prime too and I co2 purge the BB with a bike tyre inflator. theres enough in the large 16 capsule for the beer to flow into the BB under co2

 

[BeerCat]

Once i had developed a better sense of taste i realised all my bottled beer tasted weird. Oxidisation seemed worse in paler beers. Do you shake your bottles after filling?

 

[NeipaNutter]

Once i had developed a better sense of taste i realised all my bottled beer tasted weird. Oxidisation seemed worse in paler beers. Do you shake your bottles after filling?

No never. I'm pretty careful to avoid splashing and I never shake the bottle afterwards. The only reason I doubt oxidation is cause the colour doesn't change.