Not sure if my cider is going to plan..? (a bit of an essay)

[Cuffbertt]

Hey everyone :)

Over the last week and a bit I have been brewing my first ever batches of cider (first ever batches of anything, actually!). I'm starting to think it's gone a bit wrong, so I'm just after a bit of advice if it has (or reassurance if everything's ok!). I've tried to keep my recipe/method as simple as possible for my first try, so I know what works or doesn't work for next time.

Batch 1
Royal Gala apples from Tesco. Juiced and sieved and put into a sterilised 1gal demijohn. Added a crushed campden tablet, put an airlock bung in, and waited for 24(ish) hours. The next day I added half a sachet of Wilkinsons Ale Yeast and gave it a swish around.

After about three days it looked exactly the same and the airlock wasn't bubbling. I thought that I might have added the yeast too quickly after the campden tablet so I added another half sachet (took some juice out, warmed it slightly in the microwave, stired in the yeast for a minute and then poured back into the demijohn and swished).

That was on Wednesday and the SG when I started was 1.052. It's now around 1.011. which I calculate as 5.3% abv. Sound's like it's going well so far, right? Well, here's the thing... It smells awful. to the point where it had to be put in the shed because it stank the house out. It's started to die down over the last couple of days, so I think it was the infamous "rhino farts". Since then it's developed some random black dots just above the waterline. I thought it could be some sediment that got stuck there when I swished the liquid around, and turned mouldy? I did a quick search for mouldy cider and I found some pretty horrific stuff, which makes me think I'm worrying about nothing haha.

Do the black dots and bad smell indicate that something is not right, or am I just worrying for no reason? I'd upload a photo but as a newbie user I'm not sure if I'm allowed.

Batch 2
Ok, my second batch was a lot less interesting. I bought some Discovery apples from a local farm and followed the same method as with the fist batch.

I added a crushed campden tablet, waited a day and then added the yeast. After a few days of no activity I added more yeast, but since then it's not changed at all. I'd like to give it another (third) go using a "starter" (I've read that a good method is to add the yeast to a small amount of warm water with some sugar, and wait until it bubbles to add it to the demijohn), but I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Basically, I have no idea how long apple juice will last or how long I can keep trying to add yeast for before it becomes unsafe and kills me lol? Perhaps it's just better to pour it away and start again?

Sorry for writing such an essay! It's my first time brewing and so I have no idea what it's meant to be like at the various stages, or what's normal/not normal lol

Any advice on either batch would be appreciated :)

Thanks,

Carl

 

[phettebs]

Carl,
I can't say specifically if you have a problem going on or not. However, I can say that fermentation produces all manner of vile smells and sights! When my wife saw one of my batches of beer fermenting, she swore she'd never drink anything I produced again. I told her every beer she ever drank looked like that at some point.

The gravity is dropping so it is fermenting. Give it some time to finish up and then take a sample and taste it. The visual and smell aspects are one thing; actually tasting it is quite another.

Best of luck to you,
Baz

 

[Crastney]

some thoughts
- supermarket apples might have had chemicals on them, which could have inhibited the yeast.
- half a sachet of yeast would take a while to get going, so it might not start as quickly.
- did you add yeast nutrient? some juices are not great, so the yeast might be struggling
- eggy smells are sometimes a sign that there's not enough nutrients for the yeast - add a teaspoon per gallon, and stir.

What temperature are you brewing at?
how much air space did you leave at top of DJ?
What kind of yeast?

second batch, you've added yeast twice, but still no action - have you taken a hydrometer reading of this one?
sounds like there might be something stopping the fermentation - what temp are you at?
juice will be ok if it's been under air lock - the thing that'll make it off is an infection and if you had one, you'd see it (and there's no fermentation so, if the yeast isn't growing, nothing else is either)

- did you rinse out that DJ after sanitisation?
- could you find out if the apples had chemicals on them?
- what was your process for juicing/sieving?

 

[Cuffbertt]

Carl,
I can't say specifically if you have a problem going on or not. However, I can say that fermentation produces all manner of vile smells and sights! When my wife saw one of my batches of beer fermenting, she swore she'd never drink anything I produced again. I told her every beer she ever drank looked like that at some point.

The gravity is dropping so it is fermenting. Give it some time to finish up and then take a sample and taste it. The visual and smell aspects are one thing; actually tasting it is quite another.

Best of luck to you,
Baz

Baz,

Thanks for the advice- I'm starting to understand that brewing is just as much of an art as it is a science lol.

Hopefully it'll stop within the next few days, and then I can wait for it to settle and then I'll give it a taste, which is quite a scary thought for some reason :lol:

 

[Cuffbertt]

some thoughts
- supermarket apples might have had chemicals on them, which could have inhibited the yeast.
- half a sachet of yeast would take a while to get going, so it might not start as quickly.
- did you add yeast nutrient? some juices are not great, so the yeast might be struggling
- eggy smells are sometimes a sign that there's not enough nutrients for the yeast - add a teaspoon per gallon, and stir.

What temperature are you brewing at?
how much air space did you leave at top of DJ?
What kind of yeast?

second batch, you've added yeast twice, but still no action - have you taken a hydrometer reading of this one?
sounds like there might be something stopping the fermentation - what temp are you at?
juice will be ok if it's been under air lock - the thing that'll make it off is an infection and if you had one, you'd see it (and there's no fermentation so, if the yeast isn't growing, nothing else is either)

- did you rinse out that DJ after sanitisation?
- could you find out if the apples had chemicals on them?
- what was your process for juicing/sieving?

I didn't add yeast nutrient to either batch, no. I have been doing quite a lot of reading since and purchased some nutrients ready in case I decide to try again. I'm also really pleased to hear that this might stop the smell lol.

The temperature in the house is between 20-24 typically, although It's obviously much less consistant now that it's in the shed. If I can get the smells under control then I might be allowed to return it to the more constant temperature in the house haha.

There is quite a lot of space in the top of the demijohns; I'd estimate about three to three and a half litres full. The yeast that I used was generic ale yeast from Wilkinsons, but I'm off to a proper home brew store in a few minutes to get some reputable stuff.

I took a hydrometer reading for the second batch when I first started, which came to 1.049. It was about the same when I added the second yeast. I haven't taken another reading since, but I didn't feel the need to since it didn't appear to be doing anything. I will do this again when I get home.

After sterilising the demijohns I rinsed them out with water, as the instructions stated on the pot. I wasn't sure if it was a good idea but I decided to follow the instructions anyway.

To get the juice from the apples, I rinsed them in water and then quartered them and juiced them using a small juicing machine (which wasn't man enough for the job really). I then sieved the juice before putting it in the demijohn.

Hopefully the apples for the second batch aren't contaminated. that would be quite ironic as I bought them from a farm because I thought they would be more natural and cleaner

I'm glad to hear that the juice isn't lost yet. I think my plan might be to add some yeast and sugar to a small amount of warm water, then when it bubbles add it to the demijohn along with a dose of nutrients. As the saying goes, "third time's a charm"

Thanks for the help :)

 

[oldbloke]

Hopefully it's just lack of nutrient, that'd be my guess anyway.
The black dots might be bits of pip if your juicer gave them a hammering, or might be something nasty. Time will tell.
In a single demijohn I typically use a half sachet of yeast (always do 2 demis at a time), never had a problem

 

[Steam brew]

As some one who made cider for a living I wonder why you are using a Camden tablet in your brew at the start stage, I would suggest you wash the apples then pulp add juice in a bucket start yeast in a bottle with 2teaspoons of sugar add to bucket allow to ferment for 4days then add to dj allow to ferment to your taste using a Camden tablet to stop the ferment then bottle :ugeek:

 

[Cuffbertt]

Ok, so last night I took hydrometer readings of both batches. Batch 1 has gone from a starting 1.052 to 1.001, has slowed right down to 1 bubble ever 35-40 seconds and has begun to settle. Yippe!! :drunk:

Batch 2 has the same SG as when I started, although it does seem to produce a bubble every so often (too slow to see it move, but every time I look at the airlock the air is in a different position). I'm going to add yeast and some nutrients tonight and give it one last go.

Hopefully it's just lack of nutrient, that'd be my guess anyway.
The black dots might be bits of pip if your juicer gave them a hammering, or might be something nasty. Time will tell.
In a single demijohn I typically use a half sachet of yeast (always do 2 demis at a time), never had a problem

Hopefully you're right and they're just bits of pip or something. I'll make sure that these dots are left behind when I syphon it to another demijohn in a few days. With any luck that's that last of them I'll see!

As some one who made cider for a living I wonder why you are using a Camden tablet in your brew at the start stage, I would suggest you wash the apples then pulp add juice in a bucket start yeast in a bottle with 2teaspoons of sugar add to bucket allow to ferment for 4days then add to dj allow to ferment to your taste using a Camden tablet to stop the ferment then bottle :ugeek:

I was under the impression that the campden tablet was added at the start to kill off all of the wild yeast that's present? Then you wait a day or two until adding your own yeast. From what I've read this seems to ensure that the end product is consistant and isn't based on the randomness of the wild yeast?

This could all be wrong though, I'm a complete brewing noob so I'm believing everything that I read at the moment haha.

Thanks for the advice, next time I will skip the campden tablet at the start :)

 

[oldbloke]

www.cider.org recommends using Campden, in varying amounts depending on the acidity of the juice, but acknowledges that some cidermakers are vehemently opposed to it.

 

[Crastney]

re: second batch, if the SG is the same, but you have bubble movement in the airlock, then a) it's taken a long time to get started, and b) there is fermentation there, so leave it alone, and it should pick up considerably over the next 24 hours.

fermentation at it's most extreme can be so vigorous that it blows the water out of the airlock, but will usually be up to 100 bloops a minute, but even a few bloops an hour indicate that gas is being produced.

 

[Steam brew]

After talking to our lab tec I have been told that a Camden tablet should not be used on fruit from supermarkets as they go through a spray clean by the growers before selling to them,they only need washing under the tap but you may need to add tannin and acid to make it into a drinkable cider .
As for cider apples if you go the modern was using yeast a tablet will be needed but for the older way no yeast and no tablet :hat:

 

[Cuffbertt]

Ok, so I went to a local homebrew shop on Friday afternoon and got some Young's Cider Yeast in a last ditch atempt to get the second batch going after about two weeks with no activity. I put about 250ml of warm water in jug with a spoonful of sugar and half the yeast. After about an hour I added it to the demijohn of apple juice/cider which did not appear to be doing anything and gave it a stir.

Within a few hours it was bubbling away ever second or so, which pleased me a lot. Then I came home on Sunday morning and found that the inside of my cupboard was covered with cider foam, the airlock was full of foam and the cider was beginning to settle. Confused, I checked the SG of the cider and found that it had gone from 1.049 to 1.003 in about 36-40 hours. No idea this was possible but I seem to have created some kind of super cider lol.

I'm thinking that the yeast and yeast nutrients that I had previously added must have got the fermentation off to a slow start, and then I came along and gave it a good kick by adding more yeast. Has anyone ever had their cider ferment this fast before?

 

[Crastney]

It sounds like you have a very warm cupboard. That kind of drop, as you've found, is perfectly possible.