Newbie mash efficiency problems... HELP!!!

[Ashley]

Firstly many thanks for taking the time to read this thread.

I have now done done 4 AG brew days since i got my equipment on boxing day.

I either finish up with less wort at the right gravity or the right amount of wort at a lowe final gravity than expected.

The thermometer i got with the kit is now f****d and reads cold tap water at 53c but that begs the question of whether it was that accurate in the first place. After doing some research i have just invested in a thermapen, but although slow and probably inaccurate my f****d thermometer still noticed a 2 to 3 degree drop in the mash tun after a 90 minute mash. Even after wrapping in blankets.

I had bought a couple of cheap thermometers from ebay and used all 3 in the HLT at the same time when getting my strike water up to temp. Although i am aware of heat pockets i got 3 seperate readings with a 7 degree range. I went with the thermometer in the middle of the range but could a couple of degrees make that huge a difference?

I have now thought about buying a super king size 15 tog duvet and getting my mum to sew it into a mash tun jacket for me as she's quite handy with a sewing machine.

Is it just this that is giving me low efficiency or is it something we all end up getting regardless?

Thanks for your help and advice in this guys, it is much appreciated!!!!!

 

[mirsultankhan]

Firstly many thanks for taking the time to read this thread.

I have now done done 4 AG brew days since i got my equipment on boxing day.

I either finish up with less wort at the right gravity or the right amount of wort at a lowe final gravity than expected.

The thermometer i got with the kit is now f****d and reads cold tap water at 53c but that begs the question of whether it was that accurate in the first place. After doing some research i have just invested in a thermapen, but although slow and probably inaccurate my f****d thermometer still noticed a 2 to 3 degree drop in the mash tun after a 90 minute mash. Even after wrapping in blankets.

I had bought a couple of cheap thermometers from ebay and used all 3 in the HLT at the same time when getting my strike water up to temp. Although i am aware of heat pockets i got 3 seperate readings with a 7 degree range. I went with the thermometer in the middle of the range but could a couple of degrees make that huge a difference?

I have now thought about buying a super king size 15 tog duvet and getting my mum to sew it into a mash tun jacket for me as she's quite handy with a sewing machine.

Is it just this that is giving me low efficiency or is it something we all end up getting regardless?

Thanks for your help and advice in this guys, it is much appreciated!!!!!

Yeah i have the same problems with thermometers. Such a pain.

If you are doing say 4.0 -5.0 kg of grain the grain itself will essentially absorb a litre of water per kg and boil off will also require about a litre of water per Kg. Hops only about 200ml which is inconsequential. For me therefore I need to have about 33 litres of total strike water for a 23 litre batch but that is almost impossible because my kettle is 33l, so i end up with about 20 litres to avoid boil over.

I am not going to use a mash tun next time, just going to do a full BIAB and maybe sparge the grain to make up the difference in a plastic bucket. I found that the kettle holds its heat much better than the mash tun. in fact I only lost a couple of degrees whereas in the mash tun I lost about 6 degrees. There are ways of insulating the tun but mines is a kind of cheap Thermos one and not very efficient. The ones I see are Maxcold Igloo or big Colemans ones.

As for the temperature of the strike water there are tolerances but the margin is apparently quite wide. As I understand it, if you want a more full bodied beer you strike high around the 70-72 Celsius mark (this creates long unfermentable sugar chains) , if you want more fermentable sugars you strike slightly lower, about 60-62 Celsius. I think the optimum is considered to be around 66 Celsius. saying that I even watched a guy do a Goblin clone on youtube at 58 Celsius, cant say how it turned out.

I am definitely going to buy a little iodine kit next time to test my mash because the last one i did I am not entirely convinced that I converted all starches to sugars for fermentation is rather slow, either that or my temperature was too high and i created these long unfermentable chains, i dunno.

You can of course take a gravity reading during almost any stage but must adjust the reading for the temperature. I heard that its not good for the hydrometer to take a reading when its too hot though as it may unfasten the paper meter inside which is stuck on with hot glue. I always take a sample and cool it down before attempting top take a reading, getting it as near 20 Celsius as possible.

I think in the end you well get so experienced at using your equipment that you will just do it! and make tasty beer.

 

[Ashley]

Yeah i have the same problems with thermometers. Such a pain.

If you are doing say 4.0 -5.0 kg of grain the grain itself will essentially absorb a litre of water per kg and boil off will also require about a litre of water per Kg. Hops only about 200ml which is inconsequential. For me therefore I need to have about 33 litres of total strike water for a 23 litre batch but that is almost impossible because my kettle is 33l, so i end up with about 20 litres to avoid boil over.

I am not going to use a mash tun next time, just going to do a full BIAB and maybe sparge the grain to make up the difference in a plastic bucket. I found that the kettle holds its heat much better than the mash tun. in fact I only lost a couple of degrees whereas in the mash tun I lost about 6 degrees. There are ways of insulating the tun but mines is a kind of cheap Thermos one and not very efficient. The ones I see are Maxcold Igloo or big Colemans ones.

As for the temperature of the strike water there are tolerances but the margin is apparently quite wide. As I understand it, if you want a more full bodied beer you strike high around the 70-72 Celsius mark (this creates long unfermentable sugar chains) , if you want more fermentable sugars you strike slightly lower, about 60-62 Celsius. I think the optimum is considered to be around 66 Celsius. saying that I even watched a guy do a Goblin clone on youtube at 58 Celsius, cant say how it turned out.

I am definitely going to buy a little iodine kit next time to test my mash because the last one i did I am not entirely convinced that I converted all starches to sugars for fermentation is rather slow, either that or my temperature was too high and i created these long unfermentable chains, i dunno.

You can of course take a gravity reading during almost any stage but must adjust the reading for the temperature. I heard that its not good for the hydrometer to take a reading when its too hot though as it may unfasten the paper meter inside which is stuck on with hot glue. I always take a sample and cool it down before attempting top take a reading, getting it as near 20 Celsius as possible.

I think in the end you well get so experienced at using your equipment that you will just do it! and make tasty beer.

I'm hoping so mate. As long as i get 40 500ml bottles from a batch i am happy but one or two extra bottles get me some samples to test before it's ready. My first batch was a grain kit that came with equipment and only been bottled for a week but thought i would have a taste today as i had a botte spare. Not bad at all but kit came with no irish moss and the haze in it looks like protein haze rather than floating yeast. The second i did was my timothy tailor mock up and that is pretty much clear and i only nottled it yesterday. That has irish moss in it. Coincidence?

Yesterday i did GW's gales festival mild and instead of an OG of 1.054 i got 1.048... and only 21L???.?

Im hoping the thermqpen irons things out but i worry that if i get that duvet it might not have anyeffect and i will have wasted 25 quid and ruined a perfectly good duvet lol

 

[Niman]

I feel your pain my first few AG brews went something similar.

how are you sparging ??

for some reason when i fly sparge i dont hit targets always a few points lower.

i brew outside so at this time of year its a nightmare to hold temps,,,last few brews due to cold winds and rain tun and boiler placed in coal shed and i have noticed that even simple things like not placing tun on concrete floor(used thick underlay) makes quite a diff.

last batch was a wheat beer and also my first batch sparge....and for once i hit volume targets and was 2 points over on OG.

its def a steep learning curve , with lots of variables

 

[Ashley]

I feel your pain my first few AG brews went something similar.

how are you sparging ??

for some reason when i fly sparge i dont hit targets always a few points lower.

i brew outside so at this time of year its a nightmare to hold temps,,,last few brews due to cold winds and rain tun and boiler placed in coal shed and i have noticed that even simple things like not placing tun on concrete floor(used thick underlay) makes quite a diff.

last batch was a wheat beer and also my first batch sparge....and for once i hit volume targets and was 2 points over on OG.

its def a steep learning curve , with lots of variables

First and last brew was a fly sparge and the two in the middle i tried batch sparging. I brew in the kitchen because k have an electric brupaks boiler, mash tun on a dining room chair in the middle and a fermenter on the floor to catch the runnings...

do you insulate your mash tun other than the camping mat?

 

[Niman]

First and last brew was a fly sparge and the two in the middle i tried batch sparging. I brew in the kitchen because k have an electric brupaks boiler, mash tun on a dining room chair in the middle and a fermenter on the floor to catch the runnings...

do you insulate your mash tun other than the camping mat?

last batch i wrapped it in underlay....

and reason why i brew outside(im electric too and struggle to maintain a rolling boil outside) is ..new kitchen installed this time last year and i aint willing to be strung up for messing it up.

 

[Ashley]

last batch i wrapped it in underlay....

and reason why i brew outside(im electric too and struggle to maintain a rolling boil outside) is ..new kitchen installed this time last year and i aint willing to be strung up for messing it up.

Lol i hear ya!!! It does get quite messy sometimes, no matter how careful we are :thumb:

 

[MyQul]

I BIAB. Usually I wrap my pot in three towels and then wrop the whole thing in a blanket. This weekend I discovered if I take a fourth towel fold it and place it on top of the the pot then wrap everything in the blanket I only lost 1C in a 40 min mash

 

[Ashley]

I BIAB. Usually I wrap my pot in three towels and then wrop the whole thing in a blanket. This weekend I discovered if I take a fourth towel fold it and place it on top of the the pot then wrap everything in the blanket I only lost 1C in a 40 min mash

sounds like i should give the knsulation a go then... i have a 10g? Mashtun... it's the square/cube shape igloo one... anyone know if a super king size duvet will e big wnough to tailor an insulatiln jacket from?

 

[Niman]

Lol i hear ya!!! It does get quite messy sometimes, no matter how careful we are :thumb:

its scary how much room it all takes....ive stuff all over.....

4 pressure barrels 2 cornys(new addition nowt in em yet)

and with fermenters and bottle conditioning i think i need a bigger man cave


my block shed ends up dripping from ceiling even afer a 90 min "rolling" boil so screw getting grief for wrecking kitchen

 

[Ashley]

I have 15 x 20 bottle crates. Purchased for storing bottles so k can stack them with the intention of brewing so much that i never drink beer that is too young. THAT takes up some room i can tell you. The dining room is now a storage area for brewing equipment and a place to store the dining room table and chairs.

My mrs and her dad put some shelves up in the utility room to store a lot of stuff but the crates can't go outside as they have clean bottles in them ready for sterilising. I cant stoore them outside or in the shed or they will need washing again.

Oh, and the conservatory is currently a walk in beer fridge lol.

 

[Niman]

lol a man after my own heart....


lol recently i got a question..


is that big cylinder in the corner of your bedroom safe...??

answer yes its what puts out fires so we all good...


no ones noticed the vast amounts of grain hidden all over the place....yet
when the mice arrive im screwed

 

[Ashley]

Ha ha, yeah me too... i bought a 25kg bog of maris otter and thought it would be eash to store in a spare clean fermenter... not the case. After 2 brews and filling a fermenter i have about 7kg stored in other bags around the place lol.

Who on earth asked that silly question about the fire extinguisher???

Anyway we have been considering moving house to plan for a family but also to accomodate my hobby witjout compromising the functionality of the house lol

 

[Fil]

I think the duvet mod may be a bit OTT, have you checked out the lid space for insulation, most if not all coldboxes just rely on a air gap in the lid to insulate,
filling the lid space with perlite or vermiculite from the garden centre is cheap n easy some use expanding builders foam, i used bubblewrap in mine..

Also are you pre heating the tun simply pouring in a couple of off the boil kettle fulls of water 15-20 mins prior to mashing and leaving to heat up the tun helps a LOT. just disgard the water before you mash

2-3C isnt too bad a drop mash at 68C to start rather than 67C perhaps.

However i think if not preheating and using an uninsulated lid making those changes to the brewday may just sort you out.

with batch sparging (way simpler) the efficiency can take a minor hit, to counter this i add a couple of handfulls of extra grain.

Tho if after a few weeks brewing your already hitting gravity targets and just falling short on the volume targets i would say your doing well :drunk::thumb:

No two small scale breweries will work the same way and the nuances of your kit will become clearer as you use it, i found it usefull when derived to write such things as deadspace and ideal strike temp on my tun in sharpie pen for a quick brewday reference..

ps best cure for supping a beer thats not the clearest, use an opaque tankard or big china mug

kudos for investing in the thermopen, nice big display and fast to read, just be warned my first one was borrowed by the G/f for cooking and never returned.. :whistle:

 

[mook1979]

After reading this thread, I realised that I was quite lucky in the mash tun department. Mine worked like a charm since I got it. I started doing AG and was using a standard Argos cheapy 40L cooler. I did not want to drill holes in it, so I used two grain bags inside it. I would pour the grains into the bags, do the mash and use my auto-syphon to pull the wort out. It worked really well (when I wrapped my North Face winter jacket around it) and meant I could take my time to find the perfect cooler box to convert to a mash tun.

I saw one of these in Costco (sorry about the link to another forum, it is the only one I could find):
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f257/60...-cheap-simple-144475/index16.html#post4167751

Our Argos cooler claims to keep food cold for about 12 hours. The new one claims to keep food cold for up to a week! It also had a tap drilled in the bottom. All I had to do was buy a standard stainless steel ball valve and associated fitting and that was it. I used a bazooka hop screen on the inside. I never had any issues with running off wort and the box is so well insulated that sometimes I loose less than 1C (when placed on a chair, not left on a clod floor). The only issue is that the ball valve is pretty much level with the bottom of the cooler, so I need to really careful not to rock it around when cleaning or carrying it around and end up bending the plastic, causing a leak in the process.

I am happy for share links to all the parts (a grand total of three) for this mash tun if anyone is looking to build one.

 

[johnnyboy1965]

If in doubt, brew short and "back liquor". Its a lot easier to hit your targets like this.

 

[MyQul]

If in doubt, brew short and "back liquor". Its a lot easier to hit your targets like this.

This is one of the reasons I like maxi-biab as, as long as I do a thorough separate sparge, I have a lot of control over my OG

 

[Fil]

After reading this thread, I realised that I was quite lucky in the mash tun department. Mine worked like a charm since I got it. I started doing AG and was using a standard Argos cheapy 40L cooler. I did not want to drill holes in it, so I used two grain bags inside it. I would pour the grains into the bags, do the mash and use my auto-syphon to pull the wort out. It worked really well (when I wrapped my North Face winter jacket around it) and meant I could take my time to find the perfect cooler box to convert to a mash tun.

I saw one of these in Costco (sorry about the link to another forum, it is the only one I could find):
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f257/60...-cheap-simple-144475/index16.html#post4167751

Our Argos cooler claims to keep food cold for about 12 hours. The new one claims to keep food cold for up to a week! It also had a tap drilled in the bottom. All I had to do was buy a standard stainless steel ball valve and associated fitting and that was it. I used a bazooka hop screen on the inside. I never had any issues with running off wort and the box is so well insulated that sometimes I loose less than 1C (when placed on a chair, not left on a clod floor). The only issue is that the ball valve is pretty much level with the bottom of the cooler, so I need to really careful not to rock it around when cleaning or carrying it around and end up bending the plastic, causing a leak in the process.

I am happy for share links to all the parts (a grand total of three) for this mash tun if anyone is looking to build one.

any more details on where this is available cant find it on costco .uk

looks like an ideal larger donar for a tun.

 

[Ashley]

I think the duvet mod may be a bit OTT, have you checked out the lid space for insulation, most if not all coldboxes just rely on a air gap in the lid to insulate,
filling the lid space with perlite or vermiculite from the garden centre is cheap n easy some use expanding builders foam, i used bubblewrap in mine..

Also are you pre heating the tun simply pouring in a couple of off the boil kettle fulls of water 15-20 mins prior to mashing and leaving to heat up the tun helps a LOT. just disgard the water before you mash

2-3C isnt too bad a drop mash at 68C to start rather than 67C perhaps.

However i think if not preheating and using an uninsulated lid making those changes to the brewday may just sort you out.

with batch sparging (way simpler) the efficiency can take a minor hit, to counter this i add a couple of handfulls of extra grain.

Tho if after a few weeks brewing your already hitting gravity targets and just falling short on the volume targets i would say your doing well :drunk::thumb:

No two small scale breweries will work the same way and the nuances of your kit will become clearer as you use it, i found it usefull when derived to write such things as deadspace and ideal strike temp on my tun in sharpie pen for a quick brewday reference..

ps best cure for supping a beer thats not the clearest, use an opaque tankard or big china mug

kudos for investing in the thermopen, nice big display and fast to read, just be warned my first one was borrowed by the G/f for cooking and never returned.. :whistle:

I have the igloo "deluxe mash tun" and there is like a button vent in the middle inside. If you squeeze the lid a fair amount of air comes out... not sure if i can get anymore of it iff than that so will look when i get home from work around 10pm...

 

[mook1979]

any more details on where this is available cant find it on costco .uk

looks like an ideal larger donar for a tun.

I cannot find it on their website at the moment. I was lucky enough to pick one up in store one day. I do not recall the exact price at the time, but I remember checking online afterwards and finding out that I got a great deal.

You can pick one up for £85 here (not cheap):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/1412...1=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

I used this to complete the build:
Tap kit:
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Tap_Kit.html#.VL4P_iusVCg

Coupler:
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Stainless_Steel_Coupler.html#.VL4PwyusVCg

Hop filter:
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Bazooka_Small_Screen.html#.VL4QISusVCg
I actually got the longer filter, which I have to bend at the end to fit inside. It works fine, but I think this one will be just as good.