Newbie Elderflower champers

[BennyBB]

Hi, I'm a complete novice and decided to give brewing some elderflower sparkling wine a go. When I mentioned it in work everyone asked for a bottle so I'm hoping it will turn out ok.
I multiplied up a recipe I found online: x4

• 5-10 Elderflowers Blossoms (or 15g of dried flowers) - I used fresh
• 700-1000g sugar - i used 4kg for the whole 4 gallons
• The juice of 3 Lemons (or 3 teaspoons of Citric Acid) - i used lemons, and put some of the peel in, which i had seen in another recipe
• 1/4 teaspoon of Wine Tannin - didn't have any so i tried a cup of black strong tea
• 1 Packet of "Champagne Style" Yeast- i used 1 for the whole 4 gallons (added 24 hours after campden tablet) (Lalvin EC 1118)
• 1 teaspoon of Yeast Nutrient
• 1 crushed Campden Tablet
• 1 Gallon of water. - i used spring water from lidl
• 140ml White Grape Concentrate or 250g chopped raisins - i ordered some of this on amazon but red turned up, so i thought id put it in and have slightly pink elderflower fizz

its been bubbling away for about a week now in the bucket. The OG was 70 on the hydrometer, which if my understanding is correct is 1.070. I opened the bucket today as I've noticed the bubbling slowing down and I'm inpatient. it was a fairly strong elderflower and alcohol smell, (almost took my breath away) with a slight farty hint, although my brother says he cant smell the fart. I tasted it and it tastes like a very sweet floral white wine, leaving a tingly feel in the mouth almost causing dry mouth. (hope this is just carbonation). Still has a reading of 4 notches below the 1.000 line (i think 1.008?). the recipe said to wait till 1.000 to 980 before putting in primed bottles and to expect upto 12%, but looking at online calculators it seems it will be more like 9%, not sure what happened there.

So my question is about sulphur, I read that eggy or farty smells are caused by sulphur, and that this can cause a burning/tingling sensation in the mouth. I read up on this and have seen advice about too much sulphur being dangerous. I don't know how to tell how much sulphur is in the brew, is it worth buying testing strips or is there a meter? also its worried me that I might kill my work colleagues, so should I just chuck it?
My understanding was that I had only added sulphur in the form of the Campden tablets (4 of them at the start), is the recipe ok? or do Campden tablets come in different sizes and ive added the big ones...? I used chemsan to sterilise the fermenting bucket, i think this also contains sulphur, is this ok?

These are probably all daft questions but I do want to make sure my brews are safe for people to drink

 

[Chippy_Tea]

If you want to try making your own give this a try -

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...ne-how-to-guide-and-recipes.49462/post-456519

 

[BennyBB]

So its reached 990 on my hydrometer, really fizzy, and smell seems to have improved. I'm guessing near ready for bottling.
If im priming with carbonation drops, how many will i need for 1L PET bottles, I'm guessing two? also how much of an increase in alcohol will i get from the carbonation after bottling, i think its at 10.5% now.

Still has a bit of a dry-mouth effect after tasting

 

[BennyBB]

So just tested it and has a pH of approx 2 on test paper, could that be the cause of the dry mouth feel? Is it retrievable?

 

[Berry454]

So just tested it and has a pH of approx 2 on test paper, could that be the cause of the dry mouth feel? Is it retrievable?

Something wrong with that test strip paper. Impossible for 3 lemons to get you down to pH 2. Probably more like 20 lemons to achieve that if even then!

The dry mouth feel is because you fermented down to 990 on the hydrometer. That's bare bones dry af without any sugar left.

If you want a more sweet wine you should aim to finish around 1.010 or so. You can also back sweeten with a sugar substitute like sucralose.

You can't add more sugar to back sweeten because you want to bottle carbonate. So a sweetener which isn't a sugar is your only option.

 

[BennyBB]

To be fair the test strips i bought fell apart not sure its great quality.
so if i back sweeten it should improve that mouth feel?

 

[Berry454]

To be fair the test strips i bought fell apart not sure its great quality.
so if i back sweeten it should improve that mouth feel?

Yeah they're probably not good quality. Try getting some which have lots of reviews on Amazon. They tend to be the best. Even then it's hit or miss. Personally I dont test pH on any of my home brew. My mouth is a good enough pH metre. Really, you need a digital ph metre if you really want to test it.

Regarding the dry mouth feel. Yes, if you back sweeten you will get a less dry finish. Try getting some of them tubs of sucralose from Tesco or Asda.

Next time try a yeast with a lower attenuation rate. Then you won't even have to back sweeten because it will just stop before it ferments dry. I like to use a fairly alcohol tolerant beer yeast if I already have it on hand. For example with these you can start on say 1.085 and finish on 1.010 without needing to stop fermentation. They just dont ferment dry like wine yeasts.

P.S that farty eggy smell during fermentation is carbon dioxide. I perfectly normal bi product of fermentation. You definitely won't be killing your co workers with sulfur.

 

[BennyBB]

Yeh they were johnsons papers from amazon, but looking at it now the reviews are mixed, just tried the papers again on chemsan, vinegar, water and the wine and they all look like ph 3... so who knows.

The wine has settled now and the brew is no longer sparkling, so its definitely finished. I had some Youngs wine sweetener which I've added to good effect, closer to off dry now.

I've siphoned into a new bucket through a muslin bag, its quite cloudy, I'm hoping some of that will drop out (i know it is supposed to be cloudy) I've read that you can add finings to clear up the wine a bit, will this work if I'm trying to carbonate afterwards?

I'm new to brewing so I'm reading loads and there so much differing info out there... I get a bit freaked out with the chemicals like VWP, chemsan, campdens bacteria and sulphur as I'm not really sure how to know when its safe..... so thanks for the reassurance

 

[Berry454]

Yeh they were johnsons papers from amazon, but looking at it now the reviews are mixed, just tried the papers again on chemsan, vinegar, water and the wine and they all look like ph 3... so who knows.

The wine has settled now and the brew is no longer sparkling, so its definitely finished. I had some Youngs wine sweetener which I've added to good effect, closer to off dry now.

I've siphoned into a new bucket through a muslin bag, its quite cloudy, I'm hoping some of that will drop out (i know it is supposed to be cloudy) I've read that you can add finings to clear up the wine a bit, will this work if I'm trying to carbonate afterwards?

I'm new to brewing so I'm reading loads and there so much differing info out there... I get a bit freaked out with the chemicals like VWP, chemsan, campdens bacteria and sulphur as I'm not really sure how to know when its safe..... so thanks for the reassurance

Yeah honestly they're very inaccurate. Unless you want to fork out for a digital meter then it's not really worth testing. How it tastes is usually a good enough guide.

Perfect! Yeah you can add anything to sweeten the wine providing it's not a fermentable sugar. Adding to much fermentable sugar prior to bottle priming = bottles bursting. So like you did, a purpose made wine sweetener or most supermarket sweeteners are fine to use. Just not sugar.

Regarding the clarity this is down to personal choice really. I like a clear drink and I don't like a lot of sediment in the bottom of my bottles. So yes I add finings. I get my brew completely clear before bottle priming. This is how I do it.

1. Degass completely by stirring vigorously until no further bubbles appear on the surface.

2. Add finnings A and B and wait for 24/48 hours until clear

3. Syphon the wine into a new bucket to Syphon it off the sediment on the bottom.

4. Stir in the sugar for bottle priming.

5. Syphon into bottles and sprinkle literally a pinch of bakers yeast into each bottle.

This gives me a beautifully carbonated bottle with barely any sediment.

So basically, yes you can add finnings like I do which will reduce the amount of sediment in your bottles and give you a more clear wine. But you will have to add a pinch of yeast to each bottle when filling so you have some yeast in the bottles to carbonate them.

Because you're making a carbonated beverage you don't need campden tablets, sulfur or any of the typical preservatives used in wine making. These chemicals are antimicrobial and prevent the wine oxidizing. As you are making a carbonated beverage the bottle carb process will prevent oxidisation and in its self is antimicrobial.

Just make sure you use a good sanitiser for cleaning your bottles before filling them.

Relax and enjoy!!

 

[Berry454]

Oh and if you want to quickly bottle carbonate your elderflower champagne you can use this method.

Get an under bed storage box. Fill with water. Put a fish tank Heater in the storage box and set the temperature to 32 degrees Celsius.

As you can see in the image. These are all 500ml bottles of cider that I bottled on Wednesday morning with a pinch of bakers yeast in each one and 8g of sugar in each.

3 days later and they are completely carbonated.

Sure beats the 2-4 weeks that it takes to bottle carb at 20-25 Celsius (room temperature).

 

[BennyBB]

Ooh nice idea, I'll give the finings a go, just popped down to wilko and they don't have any A+B finings, what would it be called from amazon or a brew shop?

 

[user 44889]

Hope this helps. Not sure if B2B do reduced postage for small items, if not look elsewhere as P&P is £5.95 i think unless you want other items as well. Look under ingredients, then Fining and Clearing.
You can get on Amazon and Ebay
Happy Brewing

 

[BennyBB]

Finings worked lovely, looks and smells lovely.
I bottled with 2x carbonation drops in each 1Litre PET bottle with a pinch of bakers yeast in each bottle last weekend, just tested a bottle but it hasnt carbonated yet, hopefully it will in another week

 

[Berry454]

Finings worked lovely, looks and smells lovely.
I bottled with 2x carbonation drops in each 1Litre PET bottle with a pinch of bakers yeast in each bottle last weekend, just tested a bottle but it hasnt carbonated yet, hopefully it will in another week

Bakers yeast like it hot. I would aim for at least 30 degrees Celsius as your temperature for bottle carbonation with bakers yeast. I personally carb at 32 and this is completely carbonated in 72 hours.

Bottle carbing at lower temperatures can take weeks. 4 to 6 weeks.

 

[BennyBB]

Ah I should have done the waterbath thing really, just thought with weather so hot it would be ok. Also considering how carbonated it was before fermentation completed I thought it might have taken off again quick

 

[Berry454]

Ah I should have done the waterbath thing really, just thought with weather so hot it would be ok. Also considering how carbonated it was before fermentation completed I thought it might have taken off again quick

Room temperature right now is probably really low and the constant fluctuations in temperature does absolutely nothing to help the carbonation process.

As in, temp rises in the day, declines at night. That constant cycle can stall your fermentation and possibly even stall the yeast from carbonating up.

I would get a bucket or storage box. Put a fish tank Heater inside and throw your bottles in. Top up with water just enough to cover the heater and a little extra. It's not to late to get them in a water bath!

Controlled temperature is so important during the carbonation phase.

 

[BennyBB]

Bit of a late reply, but just to say the fizzy elderflower went down really well as gifts, had super reviews.
I was thinking for this year to try making a wine and force carbing, then bottling to avoid the sediment, has anyone tried this before?
Also i have a black elderflower bush in the garden, anyone know if the flowers are ok to use, they are a pink colour but smell lovely

 

[starseeker]

The black elderflower (sambuca niger) will make a lovely sparkling wine ,it was good to see that your wine last year went well :)