New to brewing and all going bad :(

[MarkMayf]

I don't buy the scratched fermenter as a haven for bacteria theory.

A brand new bucket fresh from the shop will contain tiny scratches that may be near invisible to the eye. But, to a bacteria they will be chasms.

You are talking about things a few thousands of a millimetre in size.

 

[MyQul]

I don’t think so. It’s probably a mix of 2 things. 1, luck. But second you might be putting your wort into those FV while the wort is above 75, 72 is the true level but 75 seems to be a good point. This is pasteurization and will kill most yeast.

Must be all luck then? Because even though I do use a FV to no chill in and pour the boiling wort into it. I then rack/decant the wort into a second FV after it's cooled so that I can leave all the break material behind.

 

[Ninkasi]

Thank you everyone for all the comments and advice. Much appreciated. What a great forum.
So to sum up, Its still probably a cleaning/sanitize issue. As Sadfield suggested, I’ll try using PWB and chemical clean everything I use, then still use Star San to sanitize just before I brew my next one.
I like the idea of a stainless steel FV and will probably look into this when I have a bit more spare cash but for now I will just buy a new plastic FV as many have said.
As I had successful brews leaving it for 3 weeks, I guess I got lazy and didn’t bother to test the FG until the 3 weeks was up. I will take this on board and test the FG after 10 days to see if it has settled.
I will also try as dad_of_jon suggested to add a campden tablet to my water before I add. I was always worried about using water straight from the tap but up until now I had no problems. Do I add this to the water in a bucket the day before I start my brew then just add to the FV?
I will let you all know how I get on. Again, thanks all for taking the time to help.

 

[Gunge]

I don't buy the scratched fermenter as a haven for bacteria theory.

A brand new bucket fresh from the shop will contain tiny scratches that may be near invisible to the eye. But, to a bacteria they will be chasms.

You are talking about things a few thousands of a millimetre in size.

My FVs look like a grenade has gone off inside them... never had an infection. They are cleaned with a super-dilute bleach solution and a drop of washing up liquid which breaks the surface tension of the water, allowing it to better penetrate abrasions. Always put away and stored bone-dry. I'll be using them until the bottoms drop out... which did actually happen once whilst full of ale - but that's another story.

 

[Slid]

My FVs look like a grenade has gone off inside them... never had an infection. They are cleaned with a super-dilute bleach solution and a drop of washing up liquid which breaks the surface tension of the water, allowing it to better penetrate abrasions. Always put away and stored bone-dry. I'll be using them until the bottoms drop out... which did actually happen once whilst full of ale - but that's another story.

Go on, mate, we all want to hear the story. :thumb:

 

[dad_of_jon]

Thank you everyone for all the comments and advice. Much appreciated. What a great forum.
So to sum up, Its still probably a cleaning/sanitize issue. As Sadfield suggested, I’ll try using PWB and chemical clean everything I use, then still use Star San to sanitize just before I brew my next one.
I like the idea of a stainless steel FV and will probably look into this when I have a bit more spare cash but for now I will just buy a new plastic FV as many have said.
As I had successful brews leaving it for 3 weeks, I guess I got lazy and didn’t bother to test the FG until the 3 weeks was up. I will take this on board and test the FG after 10 days to see if it has settled.
I will also try as dad_of_jon suggested to add a campden tablet to my water before I add. I was always worried about using water straight from the tap but up until now I had no problems. Do I add this to the water in a bucket the day before I start my brew then just add to the FV?
I will let you all know how I get on. Again, thanks all for taking the time to help.

I use bottled water but i'm sure the campden tablet forumites will advise accordingly.

star san diluted is yeast friendly, it kills bacteria. to kill yeast you need high temps or something other that starsan.

re: wild yeast its reasonably difficult to to get wild yeast 'spontaneous' fermentation in this neck of the woods at this time of the year. Of course brewing outdoors increases the risk. Gushers can be caused by bacteria not just wild yeast.

There are as you may of gathered many approaches to brewing & sanitizing. try a few. you'll hit your sweet spot, and then you're sorted. Don't give up. :thumb:

 

[Sadfield]

star san diluted is yeast friendly, it kills bacteria. to kill yeast you need high temps or something other that starsan.

Evidence/source?

As for wild yeast, although normally difficult to pick up a wild yeast accidentally, isn't this time of year ideal for spontaneous fermentation and why Lambic producers only brew between October and May?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

 

[Gunge]

Go on, mate, we all want to hear the story. :thumb:

Well what happened was I picked the FV up by the handle and the bottom just parted company with the walls and 5 gallons of ale was immediately discharged upon the floor! Only time I've seen it happen in 30-odd years but y'know what they say about being once bitten twice shy, so it's always on my mind when handling full FVs. Maybe it was weakened by lugging bricks around the garden a few weeks prior, dunno.

 

[Fil]

Evidence/source?

As for wild yeast, although normally difficult to pick up a wild yeast accidentally, isn't this time of year ideal for spontaneous fermentation and why Lambic producers only brew between October and May?

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

for a no rinse sanitiser which is effective against yeasts you can get PAA the dairy industry no rinse sanitise concentrate via ebay for about £20 for 5l, it does not have the shelf life of starsan as the concentrate will decompose over time..

the general protection we employ against the inevitable introduction of the odd wild yeast off our bodies or from the ambient air is to pitch our chosen yeast in the billions to ensure they out populate and out eat any competition.

If you think 'catching' a wild yeast is difficult leave a mug of sweet wort on the kitchen worktop uncovered and check its gravity a week or 2 later

fwiw i will hapily retire a scratched PLASTIC fv to alternative duties.

The tempting but huge NONO imho is to use a FV as a storage vessel between brews as thats how i managed to scratch the hell out of some of mine. I have since shifted to plastic fv's that use small lid/tops such as jerrycans and 4" neck wine fvs. and my FVs have been in use much longer as a result.

the yeast book by chris white is a very good read and is enlightening with respect to just what microlife is floating about in the air in our homes..

 

[Sadfield]

for a no rinse sanitiser which is effective against yeasts you can get PAA the dairy industry no rinse sanitise concentrate via ebay for about ��£20 for 5l, it does not have the shelf life of starsan as the concentrate will decompose over time..

the general protection we employ against the inevitable introduction of the odd wild yeast off our bodies or from the ambient air is to pitch our chosen yeast in the billions to ensure they out populate and out eat any competition.

If you think 'catching' a wild yeast is difficult leave a mug of sweet wort on the kitchen worktop uncovered and check its gravity a week or 2 later

...but to pick up a wild yeast infection in a covered FV (or even uncovered) having the presence of a health pitch of Saccharomyces, is extremely difficult.

PAA will do the job, the question was regarding the validity of the comment that Starsan (Phosphoric Acid) won't. I'm assuming that someone is wrongly making the distinction that because you can Acid wash yeast, an acid based sanitiser won't kill yeast.

 

[Fil]

Im not qualified to make the arguement myself but google to the rescue.. No I have not back tracked and checked all sources..

“ The Internet is littered with data that demonstrates that acid-anionic sanitizers are bactericides, not broad-spectrum antimicrobials. My own experience with beers that plated positive for wild yeast infection after switching to Star San correlates with the published data. A local guy who I know had a persistent Brett infection that he could not get eliminate. He switched from Star San to paracetic acid (PAA), and the problem went away. This guy never had a problem with bacteria infection, even though his Brett beers were usually pitched with what are often referred to as beer spoilage bacteria.

The fact is Star San is an acid anionic sanitizer. Five Star even claims that it is a ”high foaming, acid anionic, no-rinse sanitizer“ on their website (www.fivestarchemicals.com/breweries/homebrewing/products/). Numerous publications state that acid-anionic sanitizers work via attraction to positively charged cells. Bacteria cells have a positive charge, yeast and mold cells have a negative charge (i.e., yeast and mold cells repel acid-anionic sanitizers). Since the active ingredient in Star San, dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid (see www.jstrack.org/brewing/msds/starsan.pdf), is ineffective against yeast and mold, the only thing that Star San can do to yeast and mold is beat it up via low pH, which is the same thing that happens when we acid wash yeast.

From this publication: www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/brewery_cleaning_sanitation/sanitizing_agents.htm

lifted unashamedly from
https://club.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/16003/

iirc it was on AHA i first became aware of the 'yeast friendly' features of starsan and first looked at the option of switching to PAA however since im still on my #1 bottle of starsan some years down the rd a 5l bottle of PAA with a 12month shelf life isnt much of a bargain.. and (fingers crossed) the numbers game of pitching a healthy population of yeast has worked so far

The risk of a wild yeast infection is very low when yeast have been pitched in a beer i agree, and once a healthy fermentation is underway the volume of co2 getting pushed up and out of the vessel will present a difficult barrier for environmental bugs to breach.

 

[Sadfield]

So starsan is ineffective against mold, despite being a fungicide? Star san technical data

Now, reading THIS from the yeast experts. I have two questions.

1) The advice is not to wash pitchable amounts of yeast as it is harmful, and at the very least don't go above 40F (4.44C). So what will happen to a low cell count in a clean FV with Phosphoric Acid at room temperature?

2) If Yeast Washing is not an effective way of killing wild yeast, does that not suggest that it will to an extent kill wild yeast at these low temperatures, just not very well? So, again, what about room temperature.

The following from a forum, so take with a pinch of salt, but is relaying info from Wyeast.

Hey, all.

I started working with some of the Wyeast Brett blends (the Old Ale and the Trappist (Orval)), and wasn't two happy with the prospect of buying all new equipment for just these two batches. So I wrote the following question to Wyeast:

"Is Brett really as tenacious and impossible to get rid of as I'm reading? Do I need an entirely new set of siphons, tubing, paddles (for oxygenating the wort) etc.? I'm prepared to make one fermenter the "Brett bucket". Will campden tablets, bleach, starsan, or boiling water be helpful at all? What about with a glass fermenter?"


This is what Jess Caudill, microbiologist and brewer at Wyeast, wrote back:

"No. It is as easy to kill as any Saccharomyces cerevisiae strain of yeast. No crazy chemical cocktails are necessary... just your normal alkaline cleaning and acid sanitization. It's up to you if you want different equipment for your wild brews."

Source


Backed up by the Yeast Book...

Contamination Concerns
The one thing that stops many brewers from experimenting with Brettanomyces is the worry about cross contamination. If you are not careful, you could quickly find Brettanomyces character developing in all your beers. Brettanomyces spreads easily, like other organisms, through airborne dust, wood, fruit flies, transfer lines, and other equipment. The trait that makes Brettanomyces a bit more troublesome is that it can form a biofilm, which requires proper cleaning before you can sanitize the surface. However, attention to proper cleaning and sanitizing procedures goes a long way to preventing problems. If you also keep separate soft goods, one set for Brettanomyces and one for all other beers, you should never have a problem.