New to brewing and all going bad :(

[terrym]

As I have said on here before, many years ago before food grade plastic FVs and certainly shiny SS FVs were available I used an orange plastic dustbin to ferment in. And I wasn't too fussy then about how I cleaned it and did used to scratch off dried up bits of gunk from the sides. And as far as I can remember I never had one 'infected' brew. Although my cleaning and sanitising regime for FVs is more rigorous nowadays, including the use of boiling water, I don't get concerned about the odd scratch or two on my plastic FVs and wouldn't contemplate replacing them for the sake of it. And although shiny is nice it's also expensive. You can, looking at the costs quoted above, buy upwards of 10 plastic FVs for the price of one SS FV, and at the end of the day what comes out of them at the end of the fermentation is exactly the same, although I'll warrant someone on here will tell me it isn't :whistle:

 

[johnnyboy1965]

If you saw the inside of my FVs you would be shocked. 7 years old and never been cleaned.
To remove krausen a good rub with a sponge,hot soapy water (Ill explain later).
Quick spray with a sanitizer, rinse with water and rinse with boiling water.
250+ brews and only ever had 1 infection (drunk at all stages and trying to get it wrong.

Using "washing up" liquid...
This also applies to washing plates/cups/glasses in a sink.
Fill your sink/bowl/FV with hand hot water, then add the washing up liquid. This will hold any dirt/grease/crap in suspension. If you add the washing up liquid before the water all you will get is a big bowl of bubbles.

 

[pms67]

As I have said on here before, many years ago before food grade plastic FVs and certainly shiny SS FVs were available I used an orange plastic dustbin to ferment in. And I wasn't too fussy then about how I cleaned it and did used to scratch off dried up bits of gunk from the sides. And as far as I can remember I never had one 'infected' brew. Although my cleaning and sanitising regime for FVs is more rigorous nowadays, including the use of boiling water, I don't get concerned about the odd scratch or two on my plastic FVs and wouldn't contemplate replacing them for the sake of it. And although shiny is nice it's also expensive. You can, looking at the costs quoted above, buy upwards of 10 plastic FVs for the price of one SS FV, and at the end of the day what comes out of them at the end of the fermentation is exactly the same, although I'll warrant someone on here will tell me it isn't :whistle:

I agree with you but,it’s a treat and feels good using it,makes me feel a bit more professional even if the beer coming out of it is pish 😅

 

[pms67]

Also,I worked out I have already worked my way through around five or six fv’s (through my fault entirely) so I thought why not .
Plus it was my Birthday!!
Plus swmbo bought me two Brewdog shares and I think it all went to my head after a few brews 😂

 

[johnnyboy1965]

Bursting bottles are more likely due to a wild yeast infection. Starsan doesn't touch wild yeast at all. Wild yeasts work slower than beer yeasts but also continue working long after your beer yeast has ground to a halt. So you think fermentation has stopped so you bottle your beer - but the wild yeasts are still slowly working. Hence the bursting bottles.
I've always only ever used boiling water as a sanitiser. Heat penetrates everywhere unlike chemicals so scratches are not a problem.

"Bursting bottles are more likely due to a wild yeast infection"
Can you state your evidence on this, do you have any evidence to back up your statement.
"heat penetrates everywhere".....no it doesnt

 

[pms67]

I would have said that was the cause for bursting bottles as well,what do you think is causing it?

 

[johnnyboy1965]

Not fully fermented out in primary.
Over primed in the bottles

 

[pms67]

Yes that’s another two possibilities but still a valid point about wild yeast,Ive had very aggressive gushers from one of my two infected brews

 

[johnnyboy1965]

This is a hard one... I cant prove that it is not wild yeast and you cannot prove that it is wild yeast.
JMHO...When things go wrong the default statement is...it must be wild yeast.
This is not the answer to any Hbers problems

 

[Sadfield]

I don't think wild yeast is much to worry about unless you are doing wild yeast fermentation and clean fermentations with the same equipment. The big infection risk is acetobacter, which is airborne, and will turn beer into vinegar. Lactobacillus is another for anyone who uses grains, as it is naturally present in them.

Bottle bombs can be caused by incomplete primary or infection.

A relaxed attitude to sanitation doesn't gaurantee problems, but does leave the door open a little wider.

I'd also like to see evidence that Starsan is ineffectual against wild yeast, as I've seen advice from whitelabs that a good cleaning regime ending with an acid based sanitiser is enough to kill Brettanomyces. IIRC this is the advice in the Yeast book co-written by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff.

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[johnnyboy1965]

" I use Starsan" so everything must be fine. No its not.
JMHO ..a product that HBers have been led to believe that this will sanitise all thier equipment.

 

[Sadfield]

If you saw the inside of my FVs you would be shocked. 7 years old and never been cleaned.
To remove krausen a good rub with a sponge,hot soapy water (Ill explain later).
Quick spray with a sanitizer, rinse with water and rinse with boiling water.
250+ brews and only ever had 1 infection (drunk at all stages and trying to get it wrong.

Using "washing up" liquid...
This also applies to washing plates/cups/glasses in a sink.
Fill your sink/bowl/FV with hand hot water, then add the washing up liquid. This will hold any dirt/grease/crap in suspension. If you add the washing up liquid before the water all you will get is a big bowl of bubbles.

Not sure what point you are making here.
Never cleaned your FV in 7 years, then outline how you use the following procedure.

1) Physical clean with sponge.
2) Chemical clean with detergent.
3) Antibacterial treatment with sanitiser.

Sounds quite thorough.

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[IainM]

I do that too, but I am aware that boiled water drops temperature really quickly upon contact with a big area of cooler plastic! (Anyone have on of those laser temperature probes?) I have a vague recollection from my Hygiene training that sustained contact with water above 76 deg C is what's needed to kill the bugs.

True, I should also have added that I rotate when I pour down the sides. Pasturisation might take minutes or seconds when in the 60s or 70s, but above 80C it takes a fraction of a second.

 

[JapanBrew]

I've read, so many times to replace your FV when it gets a lot of scratches because bacteria can hide in the scratches (which makes sense). Thing is, my FV's are scratched to feck mainly/possibly because I just stack all my FV's and brew pot inside one another. I've done it for several years and never had a problem with an infection doing this. I came to the conclusion it was just one of those brewers myths but then I read your post

I don’t think so. It’s probably a mix of 2 things. 1, luck. But second you might be putting your wort into those FV while the wort is above 75, 72 is the true level but 75 seems to be a good point. This is pasteurization and will kill most yeast.

 

[JapanBrew]

I posted too soon. Others hit the point. Nothing beats high temp liquids. There’s older styles such as leaving the yeast to build up in the same bucket. Yeast are territorial and will crowd out other yeast and bacteria. I’ve also heard of people storing their hops in the FV. Hops are a natural disinfectant. Some soaps use hops for the antibacterial part of the soap. Just a thought.

 

[jackthehat]

The OP mentioned that he leaves it fermenting for three weeks at 21C.

I suspect that I have finished drinking most of my brews before his are out of the bucket!

If I were him, I'd drop the temperature a little and measure the gravity after a week or 10 days. Even the best sanitation doesn't deliver total sterility so it would be better to reduce the opportunity for an infection to take hold.

 

[Sadfield]

The OP mentioned that he leaves it fermenting for three weeks at 21C.

I suspect that I have finished drinking most of my brews before his are out of the bucket!

If I were him, I'd drop the temperature a little and measure the gravity after a week or 10 days. Even the best sanitation doesn't deliver total sterility so it would be better to reduce the opportunity for an infection to take hold.

Sorry, but I don't think this is the issue or will make any difference whatsoever. Three weeks in primary at 21c is fine. Any cause of infection will still active in the beer even if packaged and chilled. It should have more than 3 months shelf life at peak condition, not 3 weeks.

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[jackthehat]

Sadfield, we don't know what the issue is, but this definitely does have the potential to make a difference. For the kits that he is brewing, fermenting for three weeks isn't needed and increases the risk of contamination.

All beer contains low levels of spoilage pathogens. Packaging increases the amount of dissolved carbon dioxide and removes it from atmospheric oxygen so creating a hostile environment for them so that they can't take hold, so doing this earlier can help.

 

[Sadfield]

Packaging increases the amount of dissolved carbon dioxide and removes it from atmospheric oxygen so creating a hostile environment for them so that they can't take hold, so doing this earlier can help.

I have an uncarbed 1800s style IPA that has a been sat in secondary since May, that proves that the low pH, alcohol content and the antibacterial nature of hops, in a fully fermented beer is more than enough of a hostile environment to inhibit spoilage. I'll wager the problem here is that spoilage has started way before fermentation has ended.

Lactobacillus, Pediococcus and other bacteria do not require oxygen.

 

[GerritT]

My brew course sensei teaches that beers hardly spoil. They age like wine. Some are better consumed within a few months, a lot however get better by the year. Those "best by" dates on packaging are required by gouvernment, not by common sense.
(same as best-by dates on sugar, salt and honey)