Need advice with this recipe for my 2nd Homebrew - A Saison

[Kunal Vanjare]

Hello guys,

I was looking to make a Saison with the ingredients I have.. well basically a Saison because a Saison yeast is the only yeast I have right now

Anyway, I know a Saison is traditionally not made out of Pale Ale malt, but I'm still gonna use it and see how it turns out. So this is what I have entered in Brewers Friend. Feel free to make changes / improvements . I have also listed some queries I have at the end. Would be great if you guys could respond on that. Again please do note that I will not be changing the grain bill for this one as I want to finish off all the ingredients I have already.

Process : BIAB
Batch Size : 5 Liters

Pale Ale 2-Row : 1.1 KG (78%)
Munich : 0.18 KG (12.77%)
Wheat : 0.13 KG (9.2%)

Magnum @60 mins - 5gms (34 IBU)
Nelson @5mins - 4gms
Nelson @flameout - 7gms
Irish Moss @15mins

Overall IBU - 39.5
Balance Value - 1.71

OG - 1.057
FG - 1.011
ABV - 5.97%
Strike Water - 7.5 Ltrs

Belle Saison Yeast - Approx. 6 gms Rehydrated (quantity as per Brewer's Friend Yeast Starter calculator)

Mash Temp - 66 degrees C
Ferm Temp - 20 degrees C

Questions :-

1. I am planning to use some Coriander Seeds & Orange Zest. How much & when do I add these?
2. Regarding water chemistry, I am planning to use Gypsum (Calcium Sulphate) and Calcium Chloride. Do I add this to the Strike water before dumping the grains in?
3. Will this recipe be too hoppy (bitter)? I am looking to make a more balanced, fruity beer this time.

Thanks

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Kunal, saison is one of my favourite styles to brew (and to drink actually). You're right that pale ale probably isn't what is commonly used today, but given saison's farmhouse roots I think it'd be difficult to say what's "traditional", and honestly I don't think you'd notice a big difference. The Munich malt is probably more unusual for a saison but it might be great.

A couple of things, Belle saison yeast is a diastaticus yeast meaning it will have a very high attenuation (which is good for a saison) and so the FG might be a lot lower than 1.011. That being said, I would personally reduce the mash temperature to about 64 to really drive down the FG, a saison can't be too dry but it can easily be too sweet. I usually aim for an FG of about 1.003 for my saisons.

Also the late hops plus the spices might be a bit much together, I'd be tempted to use one or the other. A hoppy saison can be lovely, but it can be difficult to do well. Remember that the low FG will also enhance the bitterness so you may want to lower the IBUs a bit to compensate.

Saison yeasts like a bit more heat than most strains, though I think many people overdo it a bit, something like 23° I think is a good starting point for fermentation.

With regards to water treatment, unless you know what's in your water to begin with then I wouldn't bother, just add a tiny amount of crushed Campden tablet to your water before you heat it to strike temperature.

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

Hi Steve, thanks for that!

The Munich malt is probably more unusual for a saison but it might be great.

Yeah I too am quite interested to see how Munich would affect this. All the Saisons I've had from brewpubs almost never have any Munich in them.

A couple of things, Belle saison yeast is a diastaticus yeast meaning it will have a very high attenuation (which is good for a saison) and so the FG might be a lot lower than 1.011. That being said, I would personally reduce the mash temperature to about 64 to really drive down the FG, a saison can't be too dry but it can easily be too sweet. I usually aim for an FG of about 1.003 for my saisons.

Ooh. Thanks for that! I will keep the mash temps at around 64 degrees C. Although changing that parameter on Brewers Friend isnt really altering the OG for some reason. So I hope while brewing I hit my FG below what is mentioned on the recipe.

Also the late hops plus the spices might be a bit much together, I'd be tempted to use one or the other. A hoppy saison can be lovely, but it can be difficult to do well. Remember that the low FG will also enhance the bitterness so you may want to lower the IBUs a bit to compensate.

Alright so how does this appear to you :-
4gms of Magnum at 60mins (25IBU)
7gms of Nelson Sauvin at 1min
Overall IBU - 26.6
Orange Peels / Zest at 5 mins

About 6-7 gms of rehydrated dry Belle Saison yeast. Hoping that should be enough.

With regards to water treatment, unless you know what's in your water to begin with then I wouldn't bother, just add a tiny amount of crushed Campden tablet to your water before you heat it to strike temperature.

I thought Campden tablets were required for chlorine rich waters? I am going to use RO so that should take care of the Chlorides no? I've been advised to go for Calcium Chloride, Epsom, Gypsum for the strike water. Please advise :)

 

[strange-steve]

Ooh. Thanks for that! I will keep the mash temps at around 64 degrees C. Although changing that parameter on Brewers Friend isnt really altering the OG for some reason. So I hope while brewing I hit my FG below what is mentioned on the recipe.

It won't change the OG, it'll change the FG making it more attenuative which is what you want for this style. If you did want to lower the OG (at the current OG this'll probably be around 7% ABV) then just reduce the grist a little. Personally I'd be happy with a 7% saison but some people like them a little more sessionable.

Alright so how does this appear to you :-
4gms of Magnum at 60mins (25IBU)
7gms of Nelson Sauvin at 1min
Overall IBU - 26.6
Orange Peels / Zest at 5 mins

That looks fine to me, though I can't advise you much on the orange/coriander seed addition other than often less is more with flavourings like this. I've used 0.25g/l coriander seed in Belgian pales before and it is about right for me.

I thought Campden tablets were required for chlorine rich waters? I am going to use RO so that should take care of the Chlorides no? I've been advised to go for Calcium Chloride, Epsom, Gypsum for the strike water. Please advise :)

If you're using RO then yes you won't need Campden. I've found that I like a balanced profile for my saisons, around 100ppm each of calcium, sulphate, and chloride (which is roughly an addition of 0.2g/l each of gypsum and calcium chloride to RO water).

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

Personally I'd be happy with a 7% saison but some people like them a little more sessionable

Yeah I guess a 7% abv sounds just about right for me as well. I'm making 5Litres, 4 litres of which go into making others taste the damn beer

I've used 0.25g/l coriander seed in Belgian pales before and it is about right for me.

True true. I don't want an overpowering presence of spice.

I've found that I like a balanced profile for my saisons, around 100ppm each of calcium, sulphate, and chloride (which is roughly an addition of 0.2g/l each of gypsum and calcium chloride to RO water).

Yup. 1gm each of both was my estimate as well. Some people suggest Epsom too right? Any reason why I would need that as well?

Also these salts go into the strike water correct?

 

[strange-steve]

Some people suggest Epsom too right? Any reason why I would need that as well?

Also these salts go into the strike water correct?

Yes they go into the strike water. Epsom salts are usually added to increase magnesium, which I reckon is unnecessary because the malt adds more than enough.

I will say though, I'm not a fan of using 100% RO water because you're losing a lot of trace minerals that almost certainly have a positive impact on yeast health and/or flavour. Maybe use a 9:1 ratio of RO to tap water which won't affect the mineral content that much but will add at least some of the good stuff back.

 

[Rodcx500z]

This is like a science lesson to me

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

Maybe use a 9:1 ratio of RO to tap water which won't affect the mineral content that much but will add at least some of the good stuff back.

Ooh very interesting. I'm gonna try this! Would I still need the salt additions if I use 1 part tap water?

 

[strange-steve]

Yes you will. Have a look at this thread if you want a bit more info on water treatment:
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/beginners-guide-to-water-treatment.64822/

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

Yes you will. Have a look at this thread if you want a bit more info on water treatment:
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/beginners-guide-to-water-treatment.64822/

Wow! thank you so much for this.

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

7gms of Nelson Sauvin at 1min

Alright, so if I have to add these hops at 1min before end of boil, do I let the Wort steep so as to allow some isomerization of the hops? Or do I start chilling immediately?

 

[strange-steve]

If a recipe calls for a 1 min addition it probably means to start chilling immediately at the end of the boil, otherwise it would usually specify a whirlpool addition or 80 degree steep or something.

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

If a recipe calls for a 1 min addition it probably means to start chilling immediately at the end of the boil, otherwise it would usually specify a whirlpool addition or 80 degree steep or something.

To be honest i am winging this and not following any one particular recipe here. Suggestions please?

 

[strange-steve]

If it's a hoppy aroma you're after then you'll personally I'd go for a <80° steep for 20 mins.

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

If it's a hoppy aroma you're after then you'll personally I'd go for a <80° steep for 20 mins.

I will be adding some Orange Zest & Coriander Seeds at 5min. So I'm not sure if those things would go well with a hoppy aroma? I am a little confused sorry

 

[strange-steve]

In that case then I'd skip the late additions altogether, just go for a bittering addition at the start of the boil. You don't want to wast a delicious (and expensive) hop like NS, keep it for an IPA :thumba:

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

In that case then I'd skip the late additions altogether, just go for a bittering addition at the start of the boil. You don't want to wast a delicious (and expensive) hop like NS, keep it for an IPA :thumba:

Alright then. I'll increase the bittering Magnum by 1 gm to reach about 31 IBUs. Just feel like I'd like the beer to have a nice bitter dry finish along with all the spicyness from the additions & the yeast. Fingers crossed now. Looking forward to brew this , this weekend. Shall keep you posted. Thank you for all the help, Steve. I'll bump this thread in-case i need any more help :)

 

[Kunal Vanjare]

Me again :)

What is the fermentation temperature for Saisons? I've been told you start off at around 20C and keep ramping it up. Some guy even suggested going as high as 35 deg C!!

What would you recommend?

 

[Zephyr259]

You grain bill looks very similar to mine for my first saison which turned into my base pale ale grist, 77.5% Pils/Pale, 15% Munich, 7.5% malted wheat. The first saison got pilsner malt where the pale ales have had golden promise instead, I've also brewed this with 30% vienna instead of the munich and swapping the wheat to flaked barley as I keep that in stock more than malted wheat these days. Good luck, this sounds like a tasty brew.

 

[strange-steve]

Me again :)

What is the fermentation temperature for Saisons? I've been told you start off at around 20C and keep ramping it up. Some guy even suggested going as high as 35 deg C!!

What would you recommend?

Sorry only just saw this. Personally I don't tend to go that high, usually starting around 23 to 25° is what I use.