my cider bucket is a graveyard for yeast :(

[amorphia]

Hi all,

I'm a bit miserable now because my second attempt at yeast pitching seems to have failed. I documented in this thread how my first pitching attempt failed.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29401

I've got about 27 litres apple juice in a 30 litre bucket. Juiced it myself with a juicer, so there's a bit more sediment than normal (almost 4 litres in the bottom).

It clearly did fail, after 10 days no bubbles in the airlock and no change in SG (still 45).

I now repitched with dried Nottingham ale yeast (properly rehydrated according to instructions). This was 14 days after the first pitching (could't do it till now). This stuff is supposed to be fast but 24 hours later, not a bubble. I am really sure my lid is a really tight fit, mainly because I know there was no leak last time).

I have two theories, I hope people can comment on them and give advice.

1. I think I used too much potassium metabisulphate (the local equivalent of Campden tablets). I did this to kill the wild yeast, 24 hours before I pitched (only the first time). I think I should have added 2.5g but looking at the vial I can see I actually added 5g. No idea why I made this mistake. Can this be the cause and if so can I do anything?

2. Another theory, after reading that this is sometimes a problem, is that maybe I didn't rinse the bucket enough after sterilising it. I rinsed quite carefully but I can't exclude that there might have been a drop or two of dilute steriliser left. How likely is this, and could I do anything?

I plan to pitch again a third time but I am running out of hope... Any advice gratefully received. It took ages to pick and juice all the apples so I'm really hoping this isn't a lost cause!

Cheers,

Ben

 

[RobWalker]

ignore me, being useless.

 

[PD]

Did you take a hydrometer reading of the cider before adding the yeast ? Has it dropped at all ?
Its the best way to see if any fermentation has /is taking place.
If not your over use of Campden tablet might have delayed the yeasts start... ( its Sodium Metabisulphite not potassium )
Best way forward is to take a little of your cider dilute it with boiled water and add some yeast and get that started working. Then you can keep adding a bit more cider to the starter until you have a good fermentation then add it to the brew.
If you have kept the brew sterile and the yeast has just failed to work it should be ok, but the main problem when yeasts fail to get activated is that the brew is open to airborne infections.

Good luck

sorry Rob you posted as I was typing.

 

[RobWalker]

wait, ignore me. i'm thinking of potassium sorbate. sorry :thumb:

 

[amorphia]

Thanks a lot piddledribble, that sounds like a good plan. Make sure the yeast is really going in a starter before adding it. I am going to try this. Shame I can't get to the yeast shop until next week again now!

 

[Thrupney_Bit]

Hi Ben

Don't be down heartened stuck or slow starters are quite common. There should be plenty of natural sugars in the juice.

It is possible that too much sterilising solution has killed your pitched yeast. In fact I made a similar error myself with a batch of sparkling strawberry wine. Similarly I pitched yeast added it in and nothing! In the end I got it going using stuck wine method.

My advice would be to follow the FAQ that Moley has posted on starting stuck wines. Essentially pitching your yeast and adding more and more, in specific volumes, of your juice until the whole thing is going. A hydrometer will confirm fermentation but you should hear and see (brown froth!) fermentation taking place. I'm pretty sure that this should sort things out.

Usually allow 24 hours after adding metabisulphate to must before adding yeast. The concentration to add will also depend on the pH of your juice (see Simon McKie's book for reference table). Use pH strips or an electronic meter off EBay for less than an M&S meal!

 

[amorphia]

Thanks a lot for more advice! I find the thread in question, here it is for the record:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7286

Looks like a good method for getting things going, I am trying this for sure.

 

[Thrupney_Bit]

That's the one!

The book I referenced in the above post is "Making Craft Cider - A Ciderists Guide". It's a comprehensive guide, easy to follow and not that expensive.

 

[Moley]

I've got about 27 litres apple juice in a 30 litre bucket.

1. I think I used too much potassium metabisulphate (the local equivalent of Campden tablets). I did this to kill the wild yeast, 24 hours before I pitched (only the first time). I think I should have added 2.5g but looking at the vial I can see I actually added 5g. No idea why I made this mistake. Can this be the cause and if so can I do anything?

That's about a teaspoonful, or equivalent to 10 Campden tablets, which is enough for at least 10 gallons and possibly more because the powder seems to be even more effective than its theoretical equivalent in tablets.

I've overdosed a wine must with SodMet before now and it has taken days to wear off and for me to get things started.

Get a starter bottle going and then pitch that, preferably by the doubling up method.

Don't give up, your juice is protected from infection, keep the lid on and keep trying.

 

[amorphia]

Thanks Moley!

I've realised how I make the mistake now. There are marks on the powder vial, marking every 2g. The woman in the shop said "one per 10 litres", and I interpretted it as 1 mark for 10 litres when it was actually 1g per 10 litres...

Cheers,

Ben

 

[amorphia]

OK so some stuff is happening now which seems highly weird to me so I hope someone can explain what the * is going on!

To summarise the above posts, I had two failed yeast pitches in my apple juice, which I attribute to an accidental double dose with metabisulphite (vinsvavla = local equivalent of campden tablet). I went to the shop to get yeast for a starter to try again, and the guy who works there said he was dubious that it was going to work, even with a starter, if I had double dosed with metabisulphite. So I thought, what they hey, better juice some more apples, and split this batch between two buckets and top up with fresh juice, so that the metabisulphite is diluted. So that's what I did.

The weirdness is that the juice turned out by this point to be gassy as hell. I tasted some before splitting it and topping up, and it tasted like appeltize (so like non-alcoholic fizzy apple juice). Even now like four hours after I split it and topped up and put on the lids, the airlocks are going crazy. Where on earth did all this gas come from? Why wasn't it bubbling before I touched it?

My theory is perhaps it's SO2 formed from all the metabisulphite. But if so, why doesn't it smell? I do have a cold but it ought to stink, right? The other weirdness is this: I measured the SG, and it was 45, same as before (that's why I think this isn't some kind of late starting fermentation with resurrected yeast). But when I left the SG measurer in the juice for 10 minutes, it slowly changed up to about 70!?! My theory here is that it was collecting gas bubbles, pushing it up. Can that happen?

So anyway, my starter seems to be doing OK, but so far it is only on the sugar water I started it with. I plan to add juice tomorrow, as one should. But I don't know what do, given the juice is crazy gassy and I can't explain it (maybe even fermenting already). Any ideas?

Cheers,

Ben

 

[GREBO75]

Could be that the yeastie's were doing their thing but started slowly. When you pitch yeast they grow in two phases - the first phase they use up all the available oxygen and this doesn't make any alcohol or CO2, once they run out of oxygen they start breaking down the sugars into alcohol and co2. Also you won't see any bubbles until you get past a certain contentration of co2 within the must. Add the fact that all your CT equivalent with have slowed them down a bit and my guess is that your second pitching worked but just took longer to get going than you expected.

 

[amorphia]

Thanks for the reply, I think you have to be correct. It's bubbling like crazy (like three times a second) like 18 hours later so no way is this anything other than fermentation.

What I worry about is this: I know that stressful things (like sub-optimum temperatures) can result in damage to the yeast. Is it possible that the yeast which survived is the small subset of the yeast which was extra tolerant to metabisulphite, and that this yeast is less optimal for doing the whole job of producing a decent cider? Because I do have the option of adding some new yeast which I have got going in a starter now which is totally unstressed living on sugar water with a pinch of lemon...

Cheers,

Ben

 

[Molineux]

The next yeast you use, fill a pint glass up a quarter way with warm water saturated with sugar and a pinch of YNutrient and add your yeast to this stirring gently every 15 minutes for two hours. You will end up with a cream that will explode when added to your FV.

 

[amorphia]

Thanks for the tip!