MJ Helles lager brewing with M54 yeast, what' gone wrong!?

[S.R.S]

I have posted this on the beer kit thread but thought it might be more appropriate here.

Hi All,
I have been brewing the above kit this week using M54 yeast.
Brewing under pressure in a corny (have brewed under pressure for others) from last Sunday early hours. The fermentation really took off and by Monday evening SG had dropped from OG 1.040 (this was a lower OG than expected) to 1.020.
By Tuesday morning SG had dropped further to 1.014 when I dry hopped. Until this point it smelt really good - very much like a lager is expected to smell.
By today it has been a consistent SG of 1.012 (or slightly over) since Wednesday.
Since dry hopping the aroma is not as good as it was, difficult to say but slightly musty off flavour.

My questions are why has FG stopped at 1.012 from an expected FG of 1.010 which means ABV is only circa 3.6% so below the expected 4.4% advertised by MJ with an attenuation (if correctly calculated) of only 70%?
Secondly why the off flavour since dry hopping when it smelt fine before?

Process was as follows:
1. Rehydrated yeast as normal at 22c. Sunday early hours.
2. Pitched yeast into corny at wort temp of 21.5c.
3. No pressure applied from the start until pressure built up to 23psi by Sunday pm and set spunding valve at consistent 22psi. MJ recommended pressure fermenting this yeast at 22psi from pitching.
4. Depressurized corny and added dry hopped pellets Tuesday am when SG was 1.014. Repressurized corny to 22psi.
5. Temp has been a consistent 20c and recommended brewing temp. by MJ for this yeast is 18-20c. As it was under pressure I kept it at the higher end of this range.
6. Due to put corny in fridge for cold crashing anytime now as the FG seems consistent.

Any ideas/suggestions what may have gone wrong would be welcome as always.

Many thanks

 

[Redwulf]

I did this about 3 weeks ago

Yeasties are a bit fickle sometimes you get 1.012, sometimes you get 1.008. I got 1.011 with this one but I'd brewed it short to 20l as the Kit and 1.2kg of MJ LME only gave me 1.044. There is a list on the Mangrove Jack Website which suggests mixing there kits with LME will give a higher F.G then using dextrose.

Beer Style	SG - Dextrose Brewing Sugar*	SG - Pure Malt Extract*
Helles	1.007	1.014

Mine smelt bit odd compared with other brews I've done at various points in the fermentation, but once it had been cold crashed and fined it was fine.

Did you dry hop loose or in a bag?

 

[S.R.S]

I did this about 3 weeks ago

Yeasties are a bit fickle sometimes you get 1.012, sometimes you get 1.008. I got 1.011 with this one but I'd brewed it short to 20l as the Kit and 1.2kg of MJ LME only gave me 1.044. There is a list on the Mangrove Jack Website which suggests mixing there kits with LME will give a higher F.G then using dextrose.

Beer Style	SG - Dextrose Brewing Sugar*	SG - Pure Malt Extract*
Helles	1.007	1.014

Mine smelt bit odd compared with other brews I've done at various points in the fermentation, but once it had been cold crashed and fined it was fine.

Did you dry hop loose or in a bag?

you're right the site does say fg 1.014. for some reason I thought it should have been 1.010 but I was obviously wrong.
This time I dry hopped pellets loose to maximise aroma and taste. Normally I do in a bag but this time I did differently.

 

[Redwulf]

Mine is lagering in corner of the keezer right now. I'll give it a sniff later on

 

[S.R.S]

Mine is lagering in corner of the keezer right now. I'll give it a sniff later on

be interersted to hear how it is.
As said, mine smelt great (as a lager should smell) just before dry hopping but since then has gone a bit south.

 

[Redwulf]

I just hooked it up to the tap and had a quick sniff.....and a taste. Its a bit young but there is no odour or off taste.

 

[S.R.S]

I just hooked it up to the tap and had a quick sniff.....and a taste. Its a bit young but there is no odour or off taste.

excellent, just talk me through your process if possible and duration fermenting to today?

 

[ssashton]

It may not be relevant but I did a lager with MJ Bohemian Larger Yeast and it had a distinct sulphur / egg smell. Reduced greatly after 4 weeks cold conditioning.

Were the hops from a fresh pack? I've kept some after opening in a food baggie in the fridge for 3 weeks and they smelt noticeably more cat-pee like. Possibly hop oxidation.

 

[Redwulf]

No worries,

1. Made up 10L chemsan solution in the FV and splashed it before pouring it into another one and adding airlock, spoon etc.
2. Filled a spare bucket with 20L tap water and added a crushed Campden tablet.
3. Filled my kettle with 3.5L tap water and started boiling it.
4. Filled Kitchen Sink with hot water.
5. Opened Pouch and removed yeast, hops and instructions before standing in sink with 2nd Pouch of MJ LME.
6. When the 3.5L was boiling about 20 mins added the boiling water to the FV.
7. I poured in the Helles kit, stirring as it and then repeated this with the LME.
8. Gave it a big stir until it was all mixed up
9. Added treated water from bucket to FV, stopping when I had about 20L in the FV and took a reading which was 1.044 and decided that was enough.
10. Checked temp was okay and pitched the yeast @ about 22° c before putting it in the brewing cupboard and leaving it for about a week.
11. Sanitised my Dry Hopping spider put the pellets in and dropped it into the FV, left it for another 3-4 days. ( I took another reading as the FV was open my notes say 1.016 on day 9)
12. took a reading on day 13 of 1.012 and decided it was done so moved it to the Fridge and cold crashed for 24 hours.
13. Added a gelatine solution and cold crashed for another 72 hours.
14. Kegged it and set it up with the Carb stone, 1 hour at 3-4 psi, 1 hour at 6, then up to 11 for about 48 hours disconnecting and pushing to the back to lager until needed (probably Jan)

Thats pretty much it. Fermenting temp was about 18-22° depending on the time of day.

 

[S.R.S]

It may not be relevant but I did a lager with MJ Bohemian Larger Yeast and it had a distinct sulphur / egg smell. Reduced greatly after 4 weeks cold conditioning.

Were the hops from a fresh pack? I've kept some after opening in a food baggie in the fridge for 3 weeks and they smelt noticeably more cat-pee like. Possibly hop oxidation.

yes unopened pack that came with the kit. the dates on the kit were well within bb date

 

[S.R.S]

No worries,

1. Made up 10L chemsan solution in the FV and splashed it before pouring it into another one and adding airlock, spoon etc.
2. Filled a spare bucket with 20L tap water and added a crushed Campden tablet.
3. Filled my kettle with 3.5L tap water and started boiling it.
4. Filled Kitchen Sink with hot water.
5. Opened Pouch and removed yeast, hops and instructions before standing in sink with 2nd Pouch of MJ LME.
6. When the 3.5L was boiling about 20 mins added the boiling water to the FV.
7. I poured in the Helles kit, stirring as it and then repeated this with the LME.
8. Gave it a big stir until it was all mixed up
9. Added treated water from bucket to FV, stopping when I had about 20L in the FV and took a reading which was 1.044 and decided that was enough.
10. Checked temp was okay and pitched the yeast @ about 22° c before putting it in the brewing cupboard and leaving it for about a week.
11. Sanitised my Dry Hopping spider put the pellets in and dropped it into the FV, left it for another 3-4 days. ( I took another reading as the FV was open my notes say 1.016 on day 9)
12. took a reading on day 13 of 1.012 and decided it was done so moved it to the Fridge and cold crashed for 24 hours.
13. Added a gelatine solution and cold crashed for another 72 hours.
14. Kegged it and set it up with the Carb stone, 1 hour at 3-4 psi, 1 hour at 6, then up to 11 for about 48 hours disconnecting and pushing to the back to lager until needed (probably Jan)

Thats pretty much it. Fermenting temp was about 18-22° depending on the time of day.

thanks redwulf

 

[foxy]

I have posted this on the beer kit thread but thought it might be more appropriate here.

Hi All,
I have been brewing the above kit this week using M54 yeast.
Brewing under pressure in a corny (have brewed under pressure for others) from last Sunday early hours. The fermentation really took off and by Monday evening SG had dropped from OG 1.040 (this was a lower OG than expected) to 1.020.
By Tuesday morning SG had dropped further to 1.014 when I dry hopped. Until this point it smelt really good - very much like a lager is expected to smell.
By today it has been a consistent SG of 1.012 (or slightly over) since Wednesday.
Since dry hopping the aroma is not as good as it was, difficult to say but slightly musty off flavour.

My questions are why has FG stopped at 1.012 from an expected FG of 1.010 which means ABV is only circa 3.6% so below the expected 4.4% advertised by MJ with an attenuation (if correctly calculated) of only 70%?
Secondly why the off flavour since dry hopping when it smelt fine before?

Process was as follows:
1. Rehydrated yeast as normal at 22c. Sunday early hours.
2. Pitched yeast into corny at wort temp of 21.5c.
3. No pressure applied from the start until pressure built up to 23psi by Sunday pm and set spunding valve at consistent 22psi. MJ recommended pressure fermenting this yeast at 22psi from pitching.
4. Depressurized corny and added dry hopped pellets Tuesday am when SG was 1.014. Repressurized corny to 22psi.
5. Temp has been a consistent 20c and recommended brewing temp. by MJ for this yeast is 18-20c. As it was under pressure I kept it at the higher end of this range.
6. Due to put corny in fridge for cold crashing anytime now as the FG seems consistent.

Any ideas/suggestions what may have gone wrong would be welcome as always.

Many thanks

Where do MJ recommend fermenting at pressure? It isn't a lager yeast its an ale yeast. Ale yeast doesn't perform well under pressure, neither do pastorianus yeast over 15 PSI.

 

[S.R.S]

Where do MJ recommend fermenting at pressure? It isn't a lager yeast its an ale yeast. Ale yeast doesn't perform well under pressure, neither do pastorianus yeast over 15 PSI.

Hi Foxy, please see below correspondence with MJ

Sam (Mangrove Jack's) Oct 15, 2020, 20:13 GMT+1 Good day. From when the yeast is pitched or if you don’t have co2 to force first then allow the pressure to build up from fermentation. Best regards Sam - Consumer Experience Advocate - Mangrove Jack's

Sam (Mangrove Jack's) Oct 13, 2020, 0:05 GMT+1 Hi there, Apologies for the delay in reply. Our tech team have reconfirmed 22 psi, and the same temperatures as recommended on the packet :-) Best regards Sam - Consumer Experience Advocate - Mangrove Jack's

Sam thanks for your response. Understand on the yeast strain but are you sure they are suggesting 22psi as this is quite a high pressure? Do they suggest that pressure is applied from the start of fermentation, i.e. as soon as the yeast is pitched? thanks

Sam (Mangrove Jack's) Oct 8, 2020, 22:09 GMT+1 Good day, Our tech team have advised that M54 preforms better under pressure. But 22psi. Please let us know should you require any further assistance, happy to help. Best regards Sam - Consumer Experience Advocate - Mangrove Jack's

 

[foxy]

Hi Foxy, please see below correspondence with MJ

Sam (Mangrove Jack's) Oct 15, 2020, 20:13 GMT+1 Good day. From when the yeast is pitched or if you don’t have co2 to force first then allow the pressure to build up from fermentation. Best regards Sam - Consumer Experience Advocate - Mangrove Jack's

Sam (Mangrove Jack's) Oct 13, 2020, 0:05 GMT+1 Hi there, Apologies for the delay in reply. Our tech team have reconfirmed 22 psi, and the same temperatures as recommended on the packet :-) Best regards Sam - Consumer Experience Advocate - Mangrove Jack's

Sam thanks for your response. Understand on the yeast strain but are you sure they are suggesting 22psi as this is quite a high pressure? Do they suggest that pressure is applied from the start of fermentation, i.e. as soon as the yeast is pitched? thanks

Sam (Mangrove Jack's) Oct 8, 2020, 22:09 GMT+1 Good day, Our tech team have advised that M54 preforms better under pressure. But 22psi. Please let us know should you require any further assistance, happy to help. Best regards Sam - Consumer Experience Advocate - Mangrove Jack's

I would take that with a grain of salt, Bevie only repackages yeast they don't have technical experts on yeast performance. All yeasts perform at their best level at 1 atm, while lager yeasts can handle some pressure ale yeast doesn't. It isn't just the pressure, it's also the dissolved co2 being kept in the solution.
Also the advice they gave you isn't logically sound. That would be like saying, if you haven't got a pressure fermenter, don't expect good results!
It isn't the first time I have seen poor advice from Bevie about their yeasts, and I too have wrote to them to get clarification from their suppliers about the yeasts in question, which they will do.

 

[S.R.S]

I would take that with a grain of salt, Bevie only repackages yeast they don't have technical experts on yeast performance. All yeasts perform at their best level at 1 atm, while lager yeasts can handle some pressure ale yeast doesn't. It isn't just the pressure, it's also the dissolved co2 being kept in the solution.
Also the advice they gave you isn't logically sound. That would be like saying, if you haven't got a pressure fermenter, don't expect good results!
It isn't the first time I have seen poor advice from Bevie about their yeasts, and I too have wrote to them to get clarification from their suppliers about the yeasts in question, which they will do.

Thanks for your response, appreciate your comments.
I dont quite understand your point below
'All yeasts perform at their best level at 1 atm, while lager yeasts can handle some pressure ale yeast doesn't'.
Are you saying that ale yeasts can or can't handle pressure?

 

[foxy]

Ale yeast doesn't handle pressure at all well, that's why you won't see pressure being used by pro brewers.
They will cap the fermentation at around 1 degree Plato to carbonate the beer, and that's about as far as it goes.
https://spikebrewing.com/blogs/ask-a-pro/pressurized-fermentation

 

[S.R.S]

Ale yeast doesn't handle pressure at all well, that's why you won't see pressure being used by pro brewers.
They will cap the fermentation at around 1 degree Plato to carbonate the beer, and that's about as far as it goes.
https://spikebrewing.com/blogs/ask-a-pro/pressurized-fermentation

Ale yeast doesn't handle pressure at all well, that's why you won't see pressure being used by pro brewers.
They will cap the fermentation at around 1 degree Plato to carbonate the beer, and that's about as far as it goes.
https://spikebrewing.com/blogs/ask-a-pro/pressurized-fermentation

forgive me foxy but when you say capping at 1 degree plato, if fermenting in a corny are you suggesting attaching blow off tube until 4 points towards the end of gravity?