Yeast is a funny old organism. Unless I mash above 70C I never get an FG above 1.010 for an OG in the 1.040s. Nearly everything I do will finish between 1.005-1.008 regardless of yeast strain. Yet I see others using the same strains as me getting typical FGs between 1.010 and 1.014.Good question. The answer is a mixture of 2 things:
Firstly same reasoning as for dark beers like Porter & Stout - I don't believe the dark crystal malts are adding any fermentables, though the Carared probably is.
Secondly, Brewer's Friend thinks average attenuation for this strain is 80% - I don't believe that. I get about 75% from BRY-97, but LVIPA is supposedly derived from WY1318.
(Just checked - I manually entered 75% attenuation, so technically it's me predicting an FG of 1.010! ☺)
When I did a split batch a year ago WY1318 Vs. LVIPA they had the same attenuation, 67% - that was my Hoppy Amber Ale actually, so same grist apart from the crystal malts.
Reading around the US forums, some folks seem to get very high attenuation (80%?) while others get less - I wonder if it's dependant on whether you're making a hoppy beer where you might well see some hop creep, or something like bitter where you might attenuation more typical of an English ale strain.
So the long & short of it is, I really don't know what FG to expect. If I use the 67% AA I've personally had before from this strain then that gives me FG 1.013. But it could attenuate a bit less because of the dark crystal malts, or a lot more because allegedly sometimes this strain just does
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Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
A lot of people don't have temperature control and also some leave the fermentation to run for longer than 7 days. Some will package at 1.010 as that was predicted but it might have gone lower.
Yeah, I agree with you, they're peculiar old beasties.
I didn't answer before but no I didn't mash any different to usual: Klarstein set to 67degC, and as much as the temp will go up and down I'm confident the recirc pump is keeping temperatures uniform.
For me the key point is that things are predictable - I've worked hard on my process that I can pretty much nail my OG every time. The FG/AA depends more on how much I've used a particular strain before and how well I know what it generally does.
But yeah, it's odd that you typically get lower FGs. Maybe just one of those weird ineffable things.
Yeah, it's a peculiar thing.
For the record I do use temperature control, and usually ferment everything at 20degC for consistency.
I'm hardly slow to package but then one of the criteria I have for selecting yeast is that it gets in, gets the job done and then flocs off.
It drives me mad to see a yeast nibble down another gravity point every couple of days just when you thought it was done.
Also, I use a Tilt hydrometer. So not only can I see the current gravity, I can also see the trend, the history and the rate of change: 1.013 and flat for several days vs. 1.009 and still changing rapidly are two very different kettles of fish (the former is more typical of what I see though).
May I be so bold as to place an order for one bottle of this one, it looks right up my street. Looking forward to seeing what you think about it.
You most certainly can young man
To be honest I've been really excited to brew this one for ages so I hope it turns out well. Just don't get your hopes up for a monster strong brew, it looks like it's done at 1.016 for 3.4% ABV. It might go a point more but I doubt any more than that.
In the meantime I have a crisis looming - I've got three almost empty kegs with no more than a pint or two in each. The stout is kegged but ideally I'd like to give it a lot longer to condition (now looking unlikely though!), same too with this bitter once it's ready.
I clearly need to get a lot of brewing done pronto. Fortunately I have all the ingredients, I just need to think carefully what order to brew everything in
Thank you!
What are you planning?
What are you planning?
More Porter and more Podium IPA, both fermented with LVIPA again.
I saw you had the Podium IPA actually - I agree it's more grapefruity so I'm gonna mess with the hopping again to see if I can get more orange from the Amarillo.
Did you try the others by the way?
I'm also planning a couple of lagers for which I have a pack of WY2308 in the fridge - the first will be a lager version of my Hoppy/English Amber Ale, and then I have a bag of Crisp Haná heritage malt I'm gonna use to make a Munich Helles.
That ought to keep me busy for a few months!
I saw you had the Podium IPA actually - I agree it's more grapefruity so I'm gonna mess with the hopping again to see if I can get more orange from the Amarillo.
Did you try the others by the way?
I'm also planning a couple of lagers for which I have a pack of WY2308 in the fridge - the first will be a lager version of my Hoppy/English Amber Ale, and then I have a bag of Crisp Haná heritage malt I'm gonna use to make a Munich Helles.
That ought to keep me busy for a few months!
Sounds good!
Not yet, the amber is chilling in the fridge for tonight. I was going to have it last night but finished work late. Yes the podium was really grapefruity, very nice and refreshing.
Yes a Helles is something I'd like to try soon, not seen that malt before I'll have a look see. I have high hopes for my saaz hopped pils, it was nice coming out of the fv. Not being a lager person I've been pleasantly surprised by what we can make at home, something a bit hoppier, tastier than you can buy mainly imo.
I was just finishing my recipe idea for that fruit crumble pale that I had planned, I'll post it later, see what you think, I wanted to make sure I had a decent creamy head on it so I've included carapils for retention but I'm pondering over whether to add wheat or oats (or both), not too bothered by clarity on this one but want it medium bodied, bordering on full bodied....
Not yet, the amber is chilling in the fridge for tonight. I was going to have it last night but finished work late. Yes the podium was really grapefruity, very nice and refreshing.
Yes a Helles is something I'd like to try soon, not seen that malt before I'll have a look see. I have high hopes for my saaz hopped pils, it was nice coming out of the fv. Not being a lager person I've been pleasantly surprised by what we can make at home, something a bit hoppier, tastier than you can buy mainly imo.
I was just finishing my recipe idea for that fruit crumble pale that I had planned, I'll post it later, see what you think, I wanted to make sure I had a decent creamy head on it so I've included carapils for retention but I'm pondering over whether to add wheat or oats (or both), not too bothered by clarity on this one but want it medium bodied, bordering on full bodied....
Thanks @foxbat - yeah, I remember you mentioning this a couple of months back, I think you said the seasonal strain you were using (2352???) was more hoppy whereas 2308 is more malty. I'd be very interested if you have any thoughts on the following actually:
The Helles will be 100% Hana malt and it needs to be all about the malt - I believe it's under-modified so I'm planning a long stepped mash (details TBC) and in a break from my usual 30mins, a long 2 hour boil (note to self - experiment required to determine boil off!).
Current thinking is 15g H.M'fruh at 60 & 5mins will land me in the 15-20 IBU range.
And for the "Lagery Amber Lager" as it shall be known, it should be kinda like a Vienna lager in colour and spirit if not exactly the right grist technically (same grist as here except MO instead of GP), so again more on the malty side. This one will get 35 & 15g HMF at 30 & 5 mins respectively to give me 20-25 IBUs.
Hana malt... I had to Google that. I see it's one of Crisp's craft range. It's incredibly pale - even more so than the Weyermann Bohemian malt that I was using. It'll be interesting to see how you get on with it and I think 2308 is a very good choice for both those lagers.
Experimental Brewing Ep. 141 is very worthwhile listening to - they talk to the guys from Crisp about their heritage malts: Haná, Chevallier & Plumage Archer.
Phew! Busy day in the brewery today, starting with.....
AG#83 Mk.V Hurricane Porter
I've only just polished off the previous batch at the end of the holidays but it's one of my staples so had already planned to make another.
A few minor changes from last time:
- I've dropped the starting water volume from 17L to 15L - main reason is I've settled on 15L for all my brews now, mainly to make sure the finished beer fits in the keg without overflowing!
- I'm out of Special-B so now I'm using up a bag of Briess Extra Special Malt. From memory it's pretty similar to Special-B though I chewed a few grains and noted that it's definitely quite different to the dark & extra dark crystal I'm also using - more roasty and less crystal-ey
- I had originally planned to grow a starter of Imperial A-09 Pub harvested from the last batch but I just wasn't happy with it (I have a feeling the pack of Imperial yeast wasn't the healthiest to start with), so Instead I'm going with some Lallemand Verdant IPA slurry harvested from my AG#82 Mustang Ale.
15L tap water, 1.25ml lactic acid 80%, 2g CaCl, half a Campden tablet.
Calcium 171, Chloride 106, Sulfate 40, Alkalinity 288
2000g Maris Otter
375g Brown Malt
375g Chocolate Rye Malt
125g Dark Crystal Malt 80L
125g Extra Dark Crystal Malt 160L
125g Briess Extra Special Malt
3.125kg Total
Full-volume no-sparge mash, 1h50mins @ 67degC
Boil 30mins:
25g Northdown 7.0% AAU 30mins
15g Northdown 7.0% AAU 10mins
1/4 Britewort tablet 5mins
10.5L in the FV @ OG 1.057 plus 1.75L crud in bottles which will yield another 1L or so.
Pitched about 90ml or 6tbsp of Lallemand Verdant IPA slurry harvested from my AG#82 Mustang Ale which I'd just kegged.
38 SRM
29.6 IBUs Rager
OG 1.057
Expect it to end up around 1.025-1.026 and 4.1-4.2% ABV - I wee bit stronger than last time, but should do the trick nicely
AG#83 Mk.V Hurricane Porter
I've only just polished off the previous batch at the end of the holidays but it's one of my staples so had already planned to make another.
A few minor changes from last time:
- I've dropped the starting water volume from 17L to 15L - main reason is I've settled on 15L for all my brews now, mainly to make sure the finished beer fits in the keg without overflowing!
- I'm out of Special-B so now I'm using up a bag of Briess Extra Special Malt. From memory it's pretty similar to Special-B though I chewed a few grains and noted that it's definitely quite different to the dark & extra dark crystal I'm also using - more roasty and less crystal-ey
- I had originally planned to grow a starter of Imperial A-09 Pub harvested from the last batch but I just wasn't happy with it (I have a feeling the pack of Imperial yeast wasn't the healthiest to start with), so Instead I'm going with some Lallemand Verdant IPA slurry harvested from my AG#82 Mustang Ale.
15L tap water, 1.25ml lactic acid 80%, 2g CaCl, half a Campden tablet.
Calcium 171, Chloride 106, Sulfate 40, Alkalinity 288
2000g Maris Otter
375g Brown Malt
375g Chocolate Rye Malt
125g Dark Crystal Malt 80L
125g Extra Dark Crystal Malt 160L
125g Briess Extra Special Malt
3.125kg Total
Full-volume no-sparge mash, 1h50mins @ 67degC
Boil 30mins:
25g Northdown 7.0% AAU 30mins
15g Northdown 7.0% AAU 10mins
1/4 Britewort tablet 5mins
10.5L in the FV @ OG 1.057 plus 1.75L crud in bottles which will yield another 1L or so.
Pitched about 90ml or 6tbsp of Lallemand Verdant IPA slurry harvested from my AG#82 Mustang Ale which I'd just kegged.
38 SRM
29.6 IBUs Rager
OG 1.057
Expect it to end up around 1.025-1.026 and 4.1-4.2% ABV - I wee bit stronger than last time, but should do the trick nicely
...and followed by...
Kegging: AG#82 Mustang Ale
Added gelatin finings to the keg. Approx. 11L transferred, connected to LP line at 15psi and in the kegerator at 8degC.
I'd already planned to harvest yeast for AG#83 Porter so took a sample (pics below), just to check for any major off flavours before I repitched and check the FG measured by the Tilt was accurate
It's a lovely deep amber-caramel colour, tastes fine, more obviously like a bitter than anything overtly hoppy but as usual I'll wait until it's properly ready to drink before giving the final verdict. The sample looked fairly clear already and I expect the finings will take care of the rest.
OG = 1.042 (Tilt)
FG = 1.014 (Tilt)
Apparent Attenuation = 66%
ABV = 3.7%
SRM = 12.4
IBU = 34.7 (Rager)
Kegging: AG#82 Mustang Ale
Added gelatin finings to the keg. Approx. 11L transferred, connected to LP line at 15psi and in the kegerator at 8degC.
I'd already planned to harvest yeast for AG#83 Porter so took a sample (pics below), just to check for any major off flavours before I repitched and check the FG measured by the Tilt was accurate
It's a lovely deep amber-caramel colour, tastes fine, more obviously like a bitter than anything overtly hoppy but as usual I'll wait until it's properly ready to drink before giving the final verdict. The sample looked fairly clear already and I expect the finings will take care of the rest.
OG = 1.042 (Tilt)
FG = 1.014 (Tilt)
Apparent Attenuation = 66%
ABV = 3.7%
SRM = 12.4
IBU = 34.7 (Rager)
Last edited:
...and now I feel like I've earned this...
First Tasting: AG#81 NPS American Stout
Apart from this I'm literally out of beer, otherwise I'd have left it to condition a bit longer before getting stuck in. It certainly looks the part in the glass, jet black. It's only 3.9% ABV but definitely not short on body.
It's certainly not bad but to be honest it needs longer to condition, and also still got a little way to go on carbonation too. I'm not getting anything major from the hops. There's plenty of roast as intended but it's still a little rough around the edges. From experience I expect the flavours will mellow and round off and become smoother as it conditions.
This is an area I'm still trying to suss out with kegging and I don't seem to be able to find an answer anywhere - how long do dark beers like my Porter and Stout need to condition for and what role if any does temperature play? I knew the answer when I was bottling!
(With the batch of Porter I've just finished I left it to condition in the keg for a month, and even then over the month or so it took me to drink it it was quite obviously continuing to mellow)
One other thing I'm also starting to wonder is whether closed transfers, while perfect for pale hoppy beers, are maybe not ideal for dark beers, and whether a little oxygen contact might actually be beneficial.
First Tasting: AG#81 NPS American Stout
Apart from this I'm literally out of beer, otherwise I'd have left it to condition a bit longer before getting stuck in. It certainly looks the part in the glass, jet black. It's only 3.9% ABV but definitely not short on body.
It's certainly not bad but to be honest it needs longer to condition, and also still got a little way to go on carbonation too. I'm not getting anything major from the hops. There's plenty of roast as intended but it's still a little rough around the edges. From experience I expect the flavours will mellow and round off and become smoother as it conditions.
This is an area I'm still trying to suss out with kegging and I don't seem to be able to find an answer anywhere - how long do dark beers like my Porter and Stout need to condition for and what role if any does temperature play? I knew the answer when I was bottling!
(With the batch of Porter I've just finished I left it to condition in the keg for a month, and even then over the month or so it took me to drink it it was quite obviously continuing to mellow)
One other thing I'm also starting to wonder is whether closed transfers, while perfect for pale hoppy beers, are maybe not ideal for dark beers, and whether a little oxygen contact might actually be beneficial.
moto748
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I read those last few posts with much interest, matt. I have never re-used yeast. Although I've read much here about creating starters, and so many million cells and all that, I always thought, I'm not sure that's for me. And although it's often crossed my mind as I rinse the slurry from a FV down the drain, maybe I should hang on to that, I never have, I don't recall seeing many examples of people simply putting in x tablespoonsful of slurry as you say. But hey, if it's that simple, maybe I'll give it a go! 
@moto748
Don't worry, I often think exactly the same as I rinse loads of clean and healthy yeast down the drain!
I'm sorry to say there actually is some science behind my 6tbsp of slurry. There's a detailed post here but it comes down to an assumed so many cells per ml slurry, combined with needing so many cells per ml per degrees Plato original gravity.
It just works out that for my 11-12L ish batches and typically modest original gravity I need about 75-90ml thick yeast slurry, or about 5-6tbsp.
Also bear in mind there are lots of different calculators out there, all of which are based on some very hard to verify assumptions!
Don't feel like you have to reuse yeast just because others do. I used to do it a lot more frequently but stopped because ripping and dumping dry yeast is so much simpler and requires less planning ahead.
That said, it's a useful skill to have in your repertoire, so well worth having a go!
If you want to harvest yeast from the bottom of the FV it helps enormously if you can avoid getting loads of crud in there. This way you know your slurry is pure as can be.
You can simply dump a fresh batch of wort onto a yeast cake from a batch you've just bottled or kegged - I've done this more than once without even cleaning the FV!
(In fact it's quite common if you want to make a big beer to make a small beer first to build up lots of healthy yeast to ferment the big beer)
However, there is a reasonable case that you want to encourage the yeast to work and grow and multiply a bit (though I can't remember precisely why now). For this reason you might be better to re-pitch only ⅓-½ of your yeast cake - in my Porter above I calculated it very roughly but it probably amounts to about ⅓-½ of the yeast cake.
I plan to reuse the remainder of what I harvested in my next beer - this is now being stored in the fridge in a sterilised container so I'll need to wake it up in a starter.
Also interesting to note, a while back I also heard Denny Conn on a podcast recommend re-pitching about ⅓ of the yeast cake simply because in his experience this produced the best tasting beer.
Don't worry, I often think exactly the same as I rinse loads of clean and healthy yeast down the drain!
I'm sorry to say there actually is some science behind my 6tbsp of slurry. There's a detailed post here but it comes down to an assumed so many cells per ml slurry, combined with needing so many cells per ml per degrees Plato original gravity.
It just works out that for my 11-12L ish batches and typically modest original gravity I need about 75-90ml thick yeast slurry, or about 5-6tbsp.
Also bear in mind there are lots of different calculators out there, all of which are based on some very hard to verify assumptions!
Don't feel like you have to reuse yeast just because others do. I used to do it a lot more frequently but stopped because ripping and dumping dry yeast is so much simpler and requires less planning ahead.
That said, it's a useful skill to have in your repertoire, so well worth having a go!
If you want to harvest yeast from the bottom of the FV it helps enormously if you can avoid getting loads of crud in there. This way you know your slurry is pure as can be.
You can simply dump a fresh batch of wort onto a yeast cake from a batch you've just bottled or kegged - I've done this more than once without even cleaning the FV!
(In fact it's quite common if you want to make a big beer to make a small beer first to build up lots of healthy yeast to ferment the big beer)
However, there is a reasonable case that you want to encourage the yeast to work and grow and multiply a bit (though I can't remember precisely why now). For this reason you might be better to re-pitch only ⅓-½ of your yeast cake - in my Porter above I calculated it very roughly but it probably amounts to about ⅓-½ of the yeast cake.
I plan to reuse the remainder of what I harvested in my next beer - this is now being stored in the fridge in a sterilised container so I'll need to wake it up in a starter.
Also interesting to note, a while back I also heard Denny Conn on a podcast recommend re-pitching about ⅓ of the yeast cake simply because in his experience this produced the best tasting beer.
I'm beginning to suspect this yeast slurry was already sufficiently "awake" to not require waking up in a starter
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