Mash tun without submerged element?

[jezbrews]

It seems there are two options for mashing, AIO or kettle elements that go directly into the beer. I don't want an AIO, for reasons, I want a mash tun, separate from my kettle, where I don't have an element submerged. Not only am I sick of taking it out and scrubbing it clean with steel wool, and it's not heating the mash evenly, but it also creates a 'weak point', it's a hole in the mash tun which *can* leak (my Malt Miller mash and boil kept leaks, even with pipe tape, from the transfer tap, the kettle element hole and the thermowell hole. Sometimes it's just not possible to do it up tight enough, even though customer care had told me hand tight should be enough, it isn't).

So, are there mash/boil kettle options that heat like an AIO, but aren't AIO?

 

[MashBag]

I came close to building something similar with an inline heating element.

Google "instant water heater". Koi carp tanks use similar and so do hot tubs.

You could also use an immersion coil piped to the boiler? With an inkbird controlled pump.

Also google "herms brewing" for ideas.

 

[borischarlton]

Hey, we can sort this out, couple of things, pretty much all fittings use silicone washers / O rings. If these are done up too tight they leak, they are designed to be done up just about hand tight. If they are leaking there is an issue with either the product or how they have been fitted. Either way we will sort for you.
If you have an element within a mash tun and you are not using a bag then there will be trouble. Even if you use a bag and have the element on, if you are not recirculating at the same time this will lead to hot spots, scorching and generally undesirable results.

For BIAB without a pump to recirculate our advise would be not to use the element whilst mashing.

 

[jezbrews]

I came close to building something similar with an inline heating element.

Google "instant water heater". Koi carp tanks use similar and so do hot tubs.

You could also use an immersion coil piped to the boiler? With an inkbird controlled pump.

I think the immersion coil would have the same issues by being in contact with the mash liquor full of sugars burning on, no?

 

[jezbrews]

Hey, we can sort this out, couple of things, pretty much all fittings use silicone washers / O rings. If these are done up too tight they leak, they are designed to be done up just about hand tight. If they are leaking there is an issue with either the product or how they have been fitted. Either way we will sort for you.
If you have an element within a mash tun and you are not using a bag then there will be trouble. Even if you use a bag and have the element on, if you are not recirculating at the same time this will lead to hot spots, scorching and generally undesirable results.

For BIAB without a pump to recirculate our advise would be not to use the element whilst mashing.

Hey, thanks for getting back to me. The problem is it's leaking from where the thermometer screws in as well as where the tap fits in, to the metal thread, where I use PTFE tape, it's coming out there too, but I did do it hand tight on the element screw (the special kind can't remember what it's called) but was dripping out of that. I think I emailed a while back about this.

I use a biab and it still sticks on to the element a lot, but if I don't have the element on after mashing in, the temperature just drops really quickly and even putting a bath towel over whilst heating doesn't retain heat well, it drops to 55 within ten minutes, when I'd like to be able to control temp better. I might try circulating though as I now own a pump.

 

[MashBag]

I think the immersion coil would have the same issues by being in contact with the mash liquor full of sugars burning on, no?

No. That assumes all hot things are the same surface temp.

The issue you are referring to is caused by heat density.

A 1000w element 1m long is 1w per mm
A 1000w element 25cm long is 4w per mm, the so the surface temp is greater causing the scorching.


https://farnam-custom.com/resources...up-when-discussing-heating-elements?locale=en

Loads of gooooggle "watt density"

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Using a Cygnet/Burco water heater is an option. The concealed heating element is fixed under the stainless steel base so there is no element in the water/wort.

I set the boiler temperature control on max and plug the boiler into an Inkbird temperature controller.

 

[jezbrews]

No. That assumes all hot things are the same surface temp.

The issue you are referring to is caused by heat density.

A 1000w element 1m long is 1w per mm
A 1000w element 25cm long is 4w per mm, the so the surface temp is greater causing the scorching.


https://farnam-custom.com/resources...up-when-discussing-heating-elements?locale=en

Loads of gooooggle "watt density"

Ahhh I got you now, I know the science I just didn't realise the implication of your suggestion!

 

[jezbrews]

Can

Using a Cygnet/Burco water heater is an option. The concealed heating element is fixed under the stainless steel base so there is no element in the water/wort.

I set the boiler temperature control on max and plug the boiler into an Inkbird temperature controller.

Can you get a cygnet up to a rolling boil without hacking?

 

[Twostage]

Can

Can you get a cygnet up to a rolling boil without hacking?

Put it on full.

You can't get a simmer though, if you turn it down from max it does boil, stop, boil, stop, etc. Which might be OK.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Can

Can you get a cygnet up to a rolling boil without hacking?

Yes you can.

 

[jezbrews]

Interesting, how? All I've read, because I considered getting one before, is that they have a switch to prevent it ever actually getting to boiling temps due to a chip inside.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Put it on full.

You can't get a simmer though, if you turn it down from max it does boil, stop, boil, stop, etc. Which might be OK.

Not quite. The element is on, off, on, off…..to maintain the temperature you’ve set but your description suggests it brings the water to boiling point each cycle.

It’s actually not bad at holding a temperature although I plug mine into an Inkbird to be sure what that temperature is (the boilers own thermostat is just numbered 1 to 5 and then “High”).

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Interesting, how? All I've read, because I considered getting one before, is that they have a switch to prevent it ever actually getting to boiling temps due to a chip inside.

There’s no chip, just a simple thermostat. There is a thermal cut-out if the boiler runs dry (with a reset button) but this is also a simple mechanical device bolted on the underside of the base.

To bring the wort to the boil turn the thermostat to “High”.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Interesting, how? All I've read, because I considered getting one before, is that they have a switch to prevent it ever actually getting to boiling temps due to a chip inside.

Here’s a picture from one of my brewday posts showing the wort boiling.

Brew-day is all done, beer in the fermenter, clearing up done. A couple of different photos for this one:

Steam from the boil coming out from under the brew-shed roof, and the boil that’s fuelling it.

View attachment 61363 View attachment 61364
…and a couple of more routine pictures showing the 22 litres of wort and tucked up in the fermentation cabinet together with the Saison and Single.
View attachment 61365 View attachment 61366

 

[jezbrews]

Hmm, the taps aren't really very secure for piping, there's no circulation and none of them seem to get big enough for me. I want a final batch size of 30L. Still, the lack of compatibility with SS conicals etc, and can't be amended to be so, is off putting. I think I'll stick with looking for an AIO, thank you though.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Hmm, the taps aren't really very secure for piping, there's no circulation and none of them seem to get big enough for me. I want a final batch size of 30L. Still, the lack of compatibility with SS conicals etc, and can't be amended to be so, is off putting. I think I'll stick with looking for an AIO, thank you though.

I replaced the tap and use a high-temperature food-safe pump to recirculate as you see here.

I can’t do 30-litre batches though unless I liquor-back or brew two batches. There is a 40-litre version of the boiler that might but I’ve never used one so can’t give you any assurances about it I’m afraid.

 

[MashBag]

Can

Can you get a cygnet up to a rolling boil without hacking?

Nope it programmed to simmer

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Nope it programmed to simmer

If they’ve changed the design then well done for being on the ball

Mine has no such limitations and in my mind is better for it! I had assumed I’d just replace mine when necessary, and probably still will, but it will need additional modification.

@jezbrews I think you’d already dismissed the Cygnet but please take note.

 

[MashBag]

Not only am I sick of taking it out and scrubbing it clean with steel wool, and it's not heating the mash evenly, but it also creates a 'weak point', it's a hole in the mash tun which *can* leak

Wouldn't a better cleaning product not solve this, with an element that had a lower watt density?