Mash Out

[blockley]

I have a recipe that says mash at 68 degrees for 60 minutes and then mash out at 75 degrees for 10 minutes. (i.e. 70 minutes mash time).

How do I account for the fact that it’ll probably take 7 or 8 minutes to get up to 75 degrees. Do I include those 7 minutes as part of the 10 or turn the heat up at 52 minutes etc.

Somewhere there’s a compromise, I just don’t know where to make it.

Cheers

 

[strange-steve]

The timing doesn't include the time taken to raise the temperature, so do 68° for 60 mins then raise to 75° and start the timer for 10 mins once it gets there. Don't be too concerned about the timings though, when conversion is complete they become slightly arbitrary.

 

[Gerryjo]

TBH I don't bother mashing out as once the wort is drained it's straight to boil so don't see the point though I normally do full volume mash.

 

[cushyno]

My understanding is that mash out is to stop the enzymes working and a practice that breweries use to halt conversion of starch to sugars. On a homebrew scale if you're going straight from mash to boil, is a mash out relevant?

 

[Gerryjo]

My understanding is that mash out is to stop the enzymes working and a practice that breweries use to halt conversion of starch to sugars. On a homebrew scale if you're going straight from mash to boil, is a mash out relevant?

It certainly is as your already passing those temps on the way to a boil.

 

[cushyno]

That's what I thought. If you're passing through those temps anyway, why is a mash out relevant in its own right?

 

[foxy]

If your going from mash to boil with no lautering or sparging there is no need for mash out, besides stopping the enzymes it is lowering the viscosity for the latter. Even though I 'no sparge' I perform a mash out simply to add my none fermentables to the mash for 20 mins at 77 C.

 

[peebee]

"Stop the enzymes"??? I mash some beers at 74C. At least one commercial beer is mashed at 74C. A lot of the enzymes are on the way out after 1 hour at 66C anyway. At least no-one said "it lowers the viscosity" so it runs-off easier (well, @foxy almost did but perhaps thought better of it?).

"Mashout" is basically one of those anachronisms that should have died out ages ago and not be confusing new home-brewers.

"Mashout" should be performed if the process makes something you do next easier (like in @foxy's non-fermentable steeping). Otherwise consign the process to the bin where it should be.

 

[Drunkula]

Absolute, undeniable, explicit, irrefutable, definitive evidence that a mashout does or doesn't do something here:
http://brulosophy.com/2019/08/12/the-mashout-effect-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Deathstar]

Though the mash out sample seems clearer, but that could be angles.

 

[peebee]

Absolute, undeniable, explicit, irrefutable, definitive evidence that a mashout does or doesn't do something here:

"Brulosophy"? Are you taking the Michael? Or are you one of the rare breed that believes that Brulosopy make valuable and sensible conclusions?

We need a link to "The Brulosopy Effect : exBEERiment Results!!".

 

[peebee]

Though the mash out sample seems clearer, but that could be angles.

Could be? Possibly because the Alpha amylase, far from being "destroyed" by the heat, starts working overtime to convert any cloudiness-creating remaining starch?

This is what I want to try next: Hochkurz Mash. Although they are still blagging on about "mashout" - I can just skip over that bit.

 

[Drunkula]

"Brulosophy"? Are you taking the Michael? Or are you one of the rare breed that believes what Brulosopy make valuable and sensible conclusions?

Taking the Michael - how very dare you, I wouldn't know how!

The Brulosophy experiments have shown time and time again that they can be quoted to make people annoyed or at least roll their eyes with a p value of < 0.00005. Your jelluss you are. Innn'ee jelluss, Mandy?

 

[stan.distortion]

I've always been surprised by how high my mash efficiencies turn out, 75-80% when I first started out and now 85-90% with a different pale base malt known for good efficiencies. I'd no idea what a mashout was when I started and based my BIAB stovetop method on vids with grainfather and similar:
Complete the mash and lift out the bag, maybe let it drain and dip it back in a few times to help rinse but it doesn't seen to make a noticeable difference.
Put a cooling rack on top of the kettle, stand a large colander on the rack and put the bag in the colander, open the bag up a bit so the grains are exposed.
Have another pot on the stove with hot water, dip in a jug, gently pour over grains until the boil volume is reached.

Initially I'd had the rinse water at around 84-88 deg as that's the mashout figure brewtarget gave me but lowered it to 65-75 as the higher temperature seemed to cause astringency (efficiencies didn't appear to change). Mash thickness and volume of rinsing water seem to make a big difference, initially I'd used 9l in the mash, 2 to 2.5kg of grains and around 5-6l to rinse up to boil volume (12l boil in a 15l pot). Recently changed that to a 9l mash with 3-4kg grain and 8-9l rinse for a 14l boil with an extra 5l of water added to the fermenter to up the brew size (disappointing). The thicker mash reduced efficiency to around 82-87% but maxing out the mash to 11l for 3kg and rinsing with 6l dropped the efficiency to 79-80% (only 2 brews tried that way).
No idea what that method is called and apologies for the noob terminology, noting it down here in case there's anything useful in there.

 

[Gerryjo]

I've always been surprised by how high my mash efficiencies turn out, 75-80% when I first started out and now 85-90% with a different pale base malt known for good efficiencies. I'd no idea what a mashout was when I started and based my BIAB stovetop method on vids with grainfather and similar:
Complete the mash and lift out the bag, maybe let it drain and dip it back in a few times to help rinse but it doesn't seen to make a noticeable difference.
Put a cooling rack on top of the kettle, stand a large colander on the rack and put the bag in the colander, open the bag up a bit so the grains are exposed.
Have another pot on the stove with hot water, dip in a jug, gently pour over grains until the boil volume is reached.

Initially I'd had the rinse water at around 84-88 deg as that's the mashout figure brewtarget gave me but lowered it to 65-75 as the higher temperature seemed to cause astringency (efficiencies didn't appear to change). Mash thickness and volume of rinsing water seem to make a big difference, initially I'd used 9l in the mash, 2 to 2.5kg of grains and around 5-6l to rinse up to boil volume (12l boil in a 15l pot). Recently changed that to a 9l mash with 3-4kg grain and 8-9l rinse for a 14l boil with an extra 5l of water added to the fermenter to up the brew size (disappointing). The thicker mash reduced efficiency to around 82-87% but maxing out the mash to 11l for 3kg and rinsing with 6l dropped the efficiency to 79-80% (only 2 brews tried that way).
No idea what that method is called and apologies for the noob terminology, noting it down here in case there's anything useful in there.

Sparging would be the term.

 

[foxy]

"Brulosophy"? Are you taking the Michael? Or are you one of the rare breed that believes that Brulosopy make valuable and sensible conclusions?

We need a link to "The Brulosopy Effect : exBEERiment Results!!".

I rather think he is. (having a lend)

Marshall Schott in his day job is a 'Trick Cyclist' so he really knows how to massage the muppets among the home brewers. Good luck to him, he is making extra cash by brewers logging on to his blogs and buying his merchandise. What better way to do it than to go against science and proven methods, Schott is not an acclaimed or accomplished brewer. Just trying to make some extra money through controversy. Unfortunately there are those who believe him, those who want to believe there are short cuts in brewing when there isn't.

Back on the mash out, it is a system rarely used but is a good method of steeping the unfermentables, just save the extra step of steeping them separately.
I also edited the raising to lowering of viscosity.

 

[Gerryjo]

I rather think he is. (having a lend)

Marshall Schott in his day job is a 'Trick Cyclist' so he really knows how to massage the muppets among the home brewers. Good luck to him, he is making extra cash by brewers logging on to his blogs and buying his merchandise. What better way to do it than to go against science and proven methods, Schott is not an acclaimed or accomplished brewer. Just trying to make some extra money through controversy. Unfortunately there are those who believe him, those who want to believe there are short cuts in brewing when there isn't.

Back on the mash out, it is a system rarely used but is a good method of steeping the unfermentables, just save the extra step of steeping them separately.
I also edited the raising to lowering of viscosity.

I think you ay find its a bit more and he may recruit others but at the end of the day he is providing a service to those that listen.

 

[foxy]

I think you ay find its a bit more and he may recruit others but at the end of the day he is providing a service to those that listen.

As I said, I don't begrudge him making extra cash with the blogs he does, or merchandise he manages to sell. He is in the right country for it, where 12% think Joan of Arc was Noahs wife, and over 50% believe that Sodom and Gomorrah are husband and wife! He knows that there is going to be a large percentage of home brewers who will believe, and follow what he has to say,
he is in the right job to work out the numbers.
I was never trained in sales, but what I found was the more gullible a person was the easier it was to sell to them, the other thing was they never asked for a discount for cash or haggled over price. For some reason some people believe what they are told, while the more analytical thinkers don't.

 

[AdeDunn]

I used to do a mash out doing BIAB if I wasn't bothering to sparge. I flat refuse to get into why, as I refuse to get into arguments with opinionated muppets. I tried with, and I tried without, and found with better for me.

If you are trying no sparge, try it with, try it without, see how your results compare for yourself and go by that. Beats the heck out of going by the opinions of forum experts any day. If you are sparging however, pointless as does the same thing pretty much unless you do a cool water sparge.

 

[user 18729]

"Stop the enzymes"??? I mash some beers at 74C. At least one commercial beer is mashed at 74C. A lot of the enzymes are on the way out after 1 hour at 66C anyway. At least no-one said "it lowers the viscosity" so it runs-off easier (well, @foxy almost did but perhaps thought better of it?).

"Mashout" is basically one of those anachronisms that should have died out ages ago and not be confusing new home-brewers.

"Mashout" should be performed if the process makes something you do next easier (like in @foxy's non-fermentable steeping). Otherwise consign the process to the bin where it should be.

I cocked up a stout a while back when my thermometer lied to me and that was mashed at well over 74/75 degrees. Absolute belter of a beer although my efficiency did suffer