Maintaining fermentation temperatures: individual vessels vs entire brewery (air con)

[DCBC]

Yes this is another of those fermentation temperature questions. I hope it's a little more different to the norm however!

I'm finishing off my brewery build which is a garden office (galvanised steel shell with timber studwork, proboard and insulation, double glazed windows/doors all along one side). The interior space is quite small: roughly 6m long, 4m wide, 2m high.

I have a 100L 3-vessel system and I'm thinking about fermenters to match. I can only get 20L at a time into my fermentation chamber, so it's time to start seriously thinking about how to do temperature control. The unit gets quite hot: last week it got up to the high-thirties which is not good for the life of the compressors in my freezer and fridge out there. It also rules out ambient fermentation of anything except kveik beers and saisons in the summer. It gets cold in winter but always stays comfortably above freezing - the insulation is pretty good; it's only the big windows letting in sunlight (even with metal blinds in place) that causes it to heat massively.

It's all got me thinking that I have to do something to take the edge off temperatures on hot days. This might just be putting UV film on the windows to keep everything within comfortable operating temperature, which might be enough, and then keeping with glyclol/fermentation chambers. But if I want space to ferment 50L at a time, maybe multiples of 50L, then fermentation chambers will probably take up more space than I am willing to give up.

So, finally, the question! Does anyone have any idea how much of a good/bad/expensive idea it would be to install an air con system capable of heating in the winter and cooling in the summer, so that it would cover the entire small space of the brewery and allow me to have free standing fermenters and not worry about extra cooling? I am really keen to brew sustainably, so it's not about cost saving per se: I would still like to brew lagers and some ales in the winter so a little extra heat, and saisons and kveik beers in the summer, a little extra cooling, but I am conscious that it would involve heating or cooling an entire space 24/7 for the sake of a couple of fermenters. Of course, for about 6mo of the year I would hope that the temperature would remain mostly stable without either heating or cooling, so it's only the summer and winter months (I hope!). I would not want to go down this route, even if I could afford it, if it's worse for the environment than other methods.

A disadvantage of the air con idea is that it would be impossible to cold crash. I wouldn't want to invest in air con only to have to devote space/money to chillers or extra fridges.

If anyone has any experience of this approach, or has an idea of what the financial or economic impact would be, or has any other thoughts at all I'd be glad to hear from you!

Cheers

 

[JonBrew]

I've no direct experience in what you're asking about but I've heard of very small scale commercial breweries partitioning off a section of their brewery to make a cool room by means of an AC unit to allow them to ferment with ambient cooling. Some slightly larger breweries do the same to serve as a cool room. Might this be something like this be an option, i.e. essentially a big fermentation chamber to house your FVs? Appreciate you haven't a huge space to work with but I'd imagine it would be a fair bit cheaper/more efficient to cool a smaller contained space.

 

[kelper]

Remember too, that the temperature in the FV can be at least two degrees C higher than ambient at the beginning, but at least one degree lower as fermentation slows. It's better to control the FV temp than the ambient. But a ground-source heat pump could heat and cool efficiently if you have money to burn.

 

[DCBC]

I've no direct experience in what you're asking about but I've heard of very small scale commercial breweries partitioning off a section of their brewery to make a cool room by means of an AC unit to allow them to ferment with ambient cooling. Some slightly larger breweries do the same to serve as a cool room. Might this be something like this be an option, i.e. essentially a big fermentation chamber to house your FVs? Appreciate you haven't a huge space to work with but I'd imagine it would be a fair bit cheaper/more efficient to cool a smaller contained space.

This does sound like a good idea, but I'm just not sure if I have enough space. The brew stand takes up one quadrant, the sink/dw/freezer another etc etc. I have one remaining corner. What I could try is put up a floor-ceiling corner partition with some insulating material, which might fit a couple of fermenters, although I am not sure it would be worth cooling that small a space with air conditioning... worth thinking about though.

 

[DCBC]

Remember too, that the temperature in the FV can be at least two degrees C higher than ambient at the beginning, but at least one degree lower as fermentation slows. It's better to control the FV temp than the ambient. But a ground-source heat pump could heat and cool efficiently if you have money to burn.

True, though with seasonal brewing I can easily dial in a couple of degrees lower without straining the system too much. To be honest, I am thinking predominantly of being able to reduce the ambient temp to below the max operating temperature of some of the appliances (32c). Ambient temp control was a bit of an afterthought!

I do have a powerful extractor fan in there, so if I put in a make-up air grille and install a temperature switch, it might push out enough hot air on a hot day to keep everything below 32c and for me to be able to get by with just UV film on the windows. It would be good to be able to cold crash and dry hop cool :)

EDIT: I'd love a ground-source heat pump but I have neither the space nor the money! Great idea though.

 

[foxy]

Yes this is another of those fermentation temperature questions. I hope it's a little more different to the norm however!

I'm finishing off my brewery build which is a garden office (galvanised steel shell with timber studwork, proboard and insulation, double glazed windows/doors all along one side). The interior space is quite small: roughly 6m long, 4m wide, 2m high.

I have a 100L 3-vessel system and I'm thinking about fermenters to match. I can only get 20L at a time into my fermentation chamber, so it's time to start seriously thinking about how to do temperature control. The unit gets quite hot: last week it got up to the high-thirties which is not good for the life of the compressors in my freezer and fridge out there. It also rules out ambient fermentation of anything except kveik beers and saisons in the summer. It gets cold in winter but always stays comfortably above freezing - the insulation is pretty good; it's only the big windows letting in sunlight (even with metal blinds in place) that causes it to heat massively.

It's all got me thinking that I have to do something to take the edge off temperatures on hot days. This might just be putting UV film on the windows to keep everything within comfortable operating temperature, which might be enough, and then keeping with glyclol/fermentation chambers. But if I want space to ferment 50L at a time, maybe multiples of 50L, then fermentation chambers will probably take up more space than I am willing to give up.

So, finally, the question! Does anyone have any idea how much of a good/bad/expensive idea it would be to install an air con system capable of heating in the winter and cooling in the summer, so that it would cover the entire small space of the brewery and allow me to have free standing fermenters and not worry about extra cooling? I am really keen to brew sustainably, so it's not about cost saving per se: I would still like to brew lagers and some ales in the winter so a little extra heat, and saisons and kveik beers in the summer, a little extra cooling, but I am conscious that it would involve heating or cooling an entire space 24/7 for the sake of a couple of fermenters. Of course, for about 6mo of the year I would hope that the temperature would remain mostly stable without either heating or cooling, so it's only the summer and winter months (I hope!). I would not want to go down this route, even if I could afford it, if it's worse for the environment than other methods.

A disadvantage of the air con idea is that it would be impossible to cold crash. I wouldn't want to invest in air con only to have to devote space/money to chillers or extra fridges.

If anyone has any experience of this approach, or has an idea of what the financial or economic impact would be, or has any other thoughts at all I'd be glad to hear from you!

Cheers

I have made a disused cubby house into my fermenting room using a reverse cycle A/C, keeps the temperature at 17 C during summer even on 40 C days winter was the worst time the thermostat is built into the unit so can be a bit erratic. Fixed that problem by plugging the A/C into a cheap thermostat controller and now holds steady.

 

[Moe]

Have a look at HarryBrew69 on YouTube.
He built his own fermentation chambers cooled with Glycol pipes.
There’s a video of them on his channel


This one shows them.

 

[DCBC]

I have made a disused cubby house into my fermenting room using a reverse cycle A/C, keeps the temperature at 17 C during summer even on 40 C days winter was the worst time the thermostat is built into the unit so can be a bit erratic. Fixed that problem by plugging the A/C into a cheap thermostat controller and now holds steady.
View attachment 28554

I was thinking of one of these, which I think is reverse-cycle (heat pump system), although it might be overkill:

https://www.aircon247.com/p/8951143/powrmatic-vision-23-all-in-one-23kw-air-conditioning-system.html
The advantage of this is that it has a built in condenser, so all that sticks out the back is a couple of grilles. It would also act as a dehumidifier, which would be handy. My extractor fan can be wired up to a humidistat but the unit is pretty airtight so it would strain the motor unless I leave the door open all the time or cut another vent in the side. The air con idea is very much in play.... thanks for the advice!

 

[DCBC]

Have a look at HarryBrew69 on YouTube.
He built his own fermentation chambers cooled with Glycol pipes.
There’s a video of them on his channel


This one shows them.

Great! I'll have a read, cheers.

 

[foxy]

I was thinking of one of these, which I think is reverse-cycle (heat pump system), although it might be overkill:

https://www.aircon247.com/p/8951143/powrmatic-vision-23-all-in-one-23kw-air-conditioning-system.html
The advantage of this is that it has a built in condenser, so all that sticks out the back is a couple of grilles. It would also act as a dehumidifier, which would be handy. My extractor fan can be wired up to a humidistat but the unit is pretty airtight so it would strain the motor unless I leave the door open all the time or cut another vent in the side. The air con idea is very much in play.... thanks for the advice!

A/C's look to be a bit pricey in the UK, mine is a 2.5 kw and cost $400 so around 200 GBP

 

[kelper]

I'm sure you could get a unit for under a £1,000; well under. Do you know how much cooling is required? There must be online calculators based on wall area and type of insulation. It would be a shame to get an under-powered unit. Here's just one

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/smart12hp/electriq-smart12hp
That's about 2.6kW. Not reverse cycle, but do you need a heater?

 

[DCBC]

I'm sure you could get a unit for under a £1,000; well under. Do you know how much cooling is required? There must be online calculators based on wall area and type of insulation. It would be a shame to get an under-powered unit. Here's just one

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/smart12hp/electriq-smart12hp
That's about 2.6kW. Not reverse cycle, but do you need a heater?

It's not reverse-cycle but I think it handles heating according to the spec. Something to think about - it's around half the cost of my first selection, the Powrmatic (though the Powrmatic does have WiFi control which is cool!)

 

[CBBC]

Yes this is another of those fermentation temperature questions. I hope it's a little more different to the norm however!

I'm finishing off my brewery build which is a garden office (galvanised steel shell with timber studwork, proboard and insulation, double glazed windows/doors all along one side). The interior space is quite small: roughly 6m long, 4m wide, 2m high.

I have a 100L 3-vessel system and I'm thinking about fermenters to match. I can only get 20L at a time into my fermentation chamber, so it's time to start seriously thinking about how to do temperature control. The unit gets quite hot: last week it got up to the high-thirties which is not good for the life of the compressors in my freezer and fridge out there. It also rules out ambient fermentation of anything except kveik beers and saisons in the summer. It gets cold in winter but always stays comfortably above freezing - the insulation is pretty good; it's only the big windows letting in sunlight (even with metal blinds in place) that causes it to heat massively.

It's all got me thinking that I have to do something to take the edge off temperatures on hot days. This might just be putting UV film on the windows to keep everything within comfortable operating temperature, which might be enough, and then keeping with glyclol/fermentation chambers. But if I want space to ferment 50L at a time, maybe multiples of 50L, then fermentation chambers will probably take up more space than I am willing to give up.

So, finally, the question! Does anyone have any idea how much of a good/bad/expensive idea it would be to install an air con system capable of heating in the winter and cooling in the summer, so that it would cover the entire small space of the brewery and allow me to have free standing fermenters and not worry about extra cooling? I am really keen to brew sustainably, so it's not about cost saving per se: I would still like to brew lagers and some ales in the winter so a little extra heat, and saisons and kveik beers in the summer, a little extra cooling, but I am conscious that it would involve heating or cooling an entire space 24/7 for the sake of a couple of fermenters. Of course, for about 6mo of the year I would hope that the temperature would remain mostly stable without either heating or cooling, so it's only the summer and winter months (I hope!). I would not want to go down this route, even if I could afford it, if it's worse for the environment than other methods.

A disadvantage of the air con idea is that it would be impossible to cold crash. I wouldn't want to invest in air con only to have to devote space/money to chillers or extra fridges.

If anyone has any experience of this approach, or has an idea of what the financial or economic impact would be, or has any other thoughts at all I'd be glad to hear from you!

Cheers

Hi, don’t know if this will help. Have just finished building an electric 100L brewery in an insulated, cladded shed. 1 have 3 100L fermenters. For cooling I use a Maxi 100 chiller and use the product line linked to a pump in an old plastic mash tun. Also in the tun are 3 other submersible pumps which feed the coils in each FV. The Maxi temp is controlled by an STC1000. I can comfortably get the water temp in the tun down to 1degree and maintain without the use of Glycol (the maxi 100 is not glycol compatible). Each FV is controlled by Inkbirds for cooling and heating. For the heating side I have used Camper van insulation to which I have attached 150 watt under floor heating mats. I have just done my first batch and the system is working brilliantly. Cost including plumbing an fittings was around £750.

 

[DCBC]

Hi, don’t know if this will help. Have just finished building an electric 100L brewery in an insulated, cladded shed. 1 have 3 100L fermenters. For cooling I use a Maxi 100 chiller and use the product line linked to a pump in an old plastic mash tun. Also in the tun are 3 other submersible pumps which feed the coils in each FV. The Maxi temp is controlled by an STC1000. I can comfortably get the water temp in the tun down to 1degree and maintain without the use of Glycol (the maxi 100 is not glycol compatible). Each FV is controlled by Inkbirds for cooling and heating. For the heating side I have used Camper van insulation to which I have attached 150 watt under floor heating mats. I have just done my first batch and the system is working brilliantly. Cost including plumbing an fittings was around £750.

Very interesting indeed. I would love to see photos of your setup in due course!

I'm not familiar with Maxi chillers at all. So, to get this straight, you have a plastic mash tun which you keep topped up with water at room temperature. In that are the submersible pumps you need to feed the Maxi and the three FV coils. When the STC1000 tells it to, The Maxi takes the water (at whatever ambient temp is) and chills it before pushing it through the cooling coils and back into the mash tun?

Do you think an inkbird would do the same job as a STC1000 in your setup?

Thanks!

 

[CBBC]

Very interesting indeed. I would love to see photos of your setup in due course!

I'm not familiar with Maxi chillers at all. So, to get this straight, you have a plastic mash tun which you keep topped up with water at room temperature. In that are the submersible pumps you need to feed the Maxi and the three FV coils. When the STC1000 tells it to, The Maxi takes the water (at whatever ambient temp is) and chills it before pushing it through the cooling coils and back into the mash tun?

Do you think an inkbird would do the same job as a STC1000 in your setup?

Thanks!

Yep you are spot on. The Maxis are quite old beer chillers, we picked up a refurbished one for £45, unfortunately had to pay £60 for delivery as was on a pallet as it was in Sunderland. It basically has an internal tank which is filled with water, the input/output is linked with a tube and John Guest fittings. This circulates the water to prevent the cooling coils from icing up. The product line output is then recirculated through the Tun reservoir. You could use and Inkbird but the STC is only around £10 as opposed to £30 odd And does the same job.

 

[DCBC]

Yep you are spot on. The Maxis are quite old beer chillers, we picked up a refurbished one for £45, unfortunately had to pay £60 for delivery as was on a pallet as it was in Sunderland. It basically has an internal tank which is filled with water, the input/output is linked with a tube and John Guest fittings. This circulates the water to prevent the cooling coils from icing up. The product line output is then recirculated through the Tun reservoir. You could use and Inkbird but the STC is only around £10 as opposed to £30 odd And does the same job.

Amazing, thanks. I had vaguely heard of such a system (I think Mark alludes to it on his Brewbuilder website) but never seen a description of it in practice.

Based on all this excellent thread advice, I think my best course of action is:

- get UV film fitted, hopefully this will take summer temps below 30C and keep my appliances alive
- get a small panel heater for winter. I think UV film will also help maintain temps in winter
- get new fermenters and look into maxi cooling
- get air con next summer if the above approaches don't work (but probably stick with maxis for maintaining fermenter temps).

Lots to consider ... many thanks all!

 

[CBBC]

Amazing, thanks. I had vaguely heard of such a system (I think Mark alludes to it on his Brewbuilder website) but never seen a description of it in practice.

Based on all this excellent thread advice, I think my best course of action is:

- get UV film fitted, hopefully this will take summer temps below 30C and keep my appliances alive
- get a small panel heater for winter. I think UV film will also help maintain temps in winter
- get new fermenters and look into maxi cooling
- get air con next summer if the above approaches don't work (but probably stick with maxis for maintaining fermenter temps).

Lots to consider ... many thanks all!

 

[CBBC]

I think you’re biggest problem will be in the winter if you are going to rely on ambient temp during fermentation. Could be expensive to run a panel heater for the duration of the FV process, difficult to control as well. Here’s a photo of the heating mat solution.

 

[kelper]

A reverse cycle AC unit can be 400% efficient, making electric heating competitive with gas.................

 

[DCBC]

I think you’re biggest problem will be in the winter if you are going to rely on ambient temp during fermentation. Could be expensive to run a panel heater for the duration of the FV process, difficult to control as well. Here’s a photo of the heating mat solution.

They look like a good idea, though I'm going with conicals so a bit tougher. What I could do is make a cylinder of insulation and put a mini tube heater between the legs, heating it in a similar way.