Liquid Yeast Starters

[Ghillie]

Hey guys,

So been gradually stepping up my brew game since getting into the hobby early this year. Temp controlled fermentation chamber, kegerator, water treatment, etc. Was thinking that the next venture may be getting into the world of yeast starters. What's everyone's thoughts on the topic?

Is it really all that much better than dry yeast?

Is it cheaper/pricier?

Pros/cons?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Leon103]

It's really easy and takes minimal equipment.

Liquid over dry every time. Initial cost is more but when you make a starter keep some back to make more y3ast

 

[Hoddy]

It's really easy and takes minimal equipment.

Liquid over dry every time. Initial cost is more but when you make a starter keep some back to make more y3ast

What he said

 

[Hoppyland]

For me - absolutely. All of my best beers have been brewed using either liquid yeast or (in the majority of cases) yeast slopes. Most of my brews are English-style bitter/pale ale (although often with lots of the new, citrussy hops), and I love the results that I get from Brewlabs slopes - they are guaranteed to give you genuine, traditional top-fermenting English yeasts. They're from a variety of regions, so you can brew to a style that suits yourself - clean, fruity, whatever.
I've tried dried yeast (named types) a couple of times in the last few years. Reliability of fermentation has been excellent, but the result has left me wishing I'd used my usual yeast.

 

[Ghillie]

It's really easy and takes minimal equipment.

Liquid over dry every time. Initial cost is more but when you make a starter keep some back to make more y3ast

Thanks Leon!

So would you make an oversized starter, split it in half, use half for the brew, refrigerate/freeze the other half, then repeat all over again for the next brew?

Regarding materials - stir plate, flask and DME?

 

[Leon103]

Yes oversized starter. I refrigerate my yeast.

Yes that what you need but you can get away with just dme and a bottle or jar.

 

[AdeDunn]

I used my first liquid yeast recently, in the form of a Kveik yeast.

Overbuilt massively, so I have tons left in the fridge.

No messing with temp control, as it's Kveik..

Beer is delicious, and one thing really really stand out, there is NO sediment making it out of the bottles into my glass AT all! With dried yeast I have to leave some beer in the bottle, or I get sediment in the glass, regardless of what brand or type of dried yeast I use. This Kveik yeast, I pour the whole bottle, drink the lot.

I used my 3 litre flask, and my stir plate. Made the starter wort in a small saucepan obviously, cooled it in a big bowl of ice water.



Pitched a fraction of what you see there, as with Kveik you are supposed to under-pitch quite a bit, and ferment warmer than usual too (I pitched at nearly 38 degrees C, then wrapped the FV in blankets....).

I have no plans to go bag to dried yeast, even though I have some packets in the fridge. I can seriously live without the darned sediment....

 

[Ghillie]

Yes oversized starter. I refrigerate my yeast.

Yes that what you need but you can get away with just dme and a bottle or jar.

Cheers.

I think this is something I'd like to try. Will work out cheaper in the long run and eventually pay for the flask and stir-plate anyhow. That's how I justify purchases...

Not to sound stupid, but when it comes to overbuilding another starter from the previously overbuilt yeast slurry - do you get it into the flask via a sanitised funnel?

 

[Zephyr259]

I store my excess in jars in a mini-fridge, come time to build up again I decant off most of the liquid, swirl up the yeast and pour it straight into the cooled started wort in my 2L flask; the mouth is about 2" so don't really need a funnel.

I might be getting to the calming down stage and sticking to a couple of yeasts which means smaller starters to re-build. It's not been that economical thus far as if you have to step up more than once you're spending as much on the DME as you would on a sachet of dried yeast.

The "evidence" is generally anecdotal but I like the options available with liquid yeast and feel they do have more character but never tested this as I moved away from dry early on.

 

[Mavroz]

Very interested in this subject also.

Just so I grasp the basics, as I understand it you obtain the liquid yeast and add it to a flask containing a mix of DME and water? What would the ratios be?

How much of this liquid would be added to the FV? Saying there is 2 litres of liquid yeast mix in the flask..

When the brew is finished is there any mileage in keeping any of the trub, knowing it will probably contain hops from dry hop stage.

I am intrigued and will try this if anyone can point me to or tell me more on ratios and how to start a liquid yeast mix off.

 

[foxbat]

Very interested in this subject also.

Just so I grasp the basics, as I understand it you obtain the liquid yeast and add it to a flask containing a mix of DME and water? What would the ratios be?

How much of this liquid would be added to the FV? Saying there is 2 litres of liquid yeast mix in the flask..

When the brew is finished is there any mileage in keeping any of the trub, knowing it will probably contain hops from dry hop stage.

I am intrigued and will try this if anyone can point me to or tell me more on ratios and how to start a liquid yeast mix off.

For virtually all purposes you use 100g DME per litre of water.

You can tip the lot into the FV. Many people do that when the starter has a krausen on it to get off to a really flying start. Others including myself let it fully finish, chill it to let the yeast settle out, decant off 90% of the spent "beer", use the remainder to swirl up the settled yeast and tip that slurry in.

Yes people do save and wash the post fermentation yeast cake and use that. I prefer to overbuild a starter.

The size starter you need depends on a few variables including the age of the yeast pack when it gets to you. Calculators such as this one will tell you what you need.

 

[Ben034]

Liquid yeast for most brews except hop forward beers (US style IPA / pale ales) where I don't feel you add anything with liquid yeast and usually go for a packet of US-05.

 

[Ghillie]

Very interested in this subject also.

Just so I grasp the basics, as I understand it you obtain the liquid yeast and add it to a flask containing a mix of DME and water? What would the ratios be?

How much of this liquid would be added to the FV? Saying there is 2 litres of liquid yeast mix in the flask..

When the brew is finished is there any mileage in keeping any of the trub, knowing it will probably contain hops from dry hop stage.

I am intrigued and will try this if anyone can point me to or tell me more on ratios and how to start a liquid yeast mix off.

I did a lot of reading on this last night actually and think I'm going to bite the bullet and go for it. Can get loads of uses from a single vial of yeast so has economical benefits too.

The general consensus is that you overbuild the starter by 100 billion cells, which is essentially another vial of yeast. The calculator @foxbat gave tells you exactly how to do this. From the numbers I put in last night make a 2L starter designed to overbuild by 100 billion cells would mean you decant 0.5L and save that for next time and pitch 1.5L. But I think most folk will stick it in the fridge so that the yeast collects on the bottom, pour out a lot of the liquid on top leaving just enough liquid in the flask to easily swirl the yeast around so it can be dumped in the fermenter. Not enough liquid and your yeast will likely sit stuck to the bottom of the flask.

http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-harvesting/

If you overbuild and keep yeast aside for the next brew, then there's no need to harvest anything from the trub. You've already kept back enough clean yeast from the first step to overbuild again and put more aside. That's the benefit and beauty of the process as I understand it.

 

[Leon103]

Liquid yeast for most brews except hop forward beers (US style IPA / pale ales) where I don't feel you add anything with liquid yeast and usually go for a packet of US-05.

Not using the right yeasts if you don't think liquid adds to any hop forward beer

 

[Ben034]

Not using the right yeasts if you don't think liquid adds to any hop forward beer

I'm sure you can certainly add all sorts to hop forward beer styles using different yeasts but I'm usually looking for a very clean yeast with this style so I didn't see many benefits to using similar liquid variations.

 

[stz]

Dried. Pros. Cheaper. Easier to store/transport. Widely available. Cons. Limited variety.
Liquid. Pros. The almost infinite world of yeast at your fingertips. Cons. More expensive. More difficult to store/transport. Not as widely available.

It is horses for courses. Dry is way easier and cheaper though quite often limited. 100*10^9 cells per vial will do 20-25 litres at an SG of 50-40 at 1*10^6 per °P per ml which leaves plenty of wiggle room. Starters are a good idea, but sometimes wonder if the goals of hydrating yeast, making a starter and propagating yeast get a bit muddled? Then we get into pitch rates and how accurate we are feeling.

 

[Leon103]

I'm sure you can certainly add all sorts to hop forward beer styles using different yeasts but I'm usually looking for a very clean yeast with this style so I didn't see many benefits to using similar liquid variations.

True if you are going for a clean character.
Give Vermont or one of the imperial yeasts a try for hoppy beers.
I think they add a extra level to the beer. I also find that the flavours and aromas last longer. I bottle so hoppy beers need to be drank quickly or they lose flavours but with Vermont etc those flavours seem to last much longer

 

[Ben034]

True if you are going for a clean character.
Give Vermont or one of the imperial yeasts a try for hoppy beers.
I think they add a extra level to the beer. I also find that the flavours and aromas last longer. I bottle so hoppy beers need to be drank quickly or they lose flavours but with Vermont etc those flavours seem to last much longer

Interesting. I like the descriptors for vermont so may give it a try next time to contrast. Thanks

 

[Hoppyland]

Don't forget that, if you want to save costs, you don't have to make an oversized starter and split it. You can easily harvest yeast from the first brew and re-pitch it. I normally do this, with a self-imposed limit of 5 regenerations, in case I get any change of character (it hasn't happened yet). I guess my case is easy, since almost all of my beers are made with heavily top-fermenting yeasts. So, all I have to do is top-crop - skim off a portion of the krausen after, say, 4-7 days, and re-pitch it immediately with my next batch (or fridge it for a week or so, if the next batch isn't ready yet).

 

[trueblue]

It's really easy and takes minimal equipment.

Liquid over dry every time. Initial cost is more but when you make a starter keep some back to make more y3as

Only three! I add one pack of yeast to a 2lt starter, when fermented I split SIX ways and keep in the fridge. When you use a split you do need to make a fresh starter a few days before you brew. Getting six brews from each pack explodes the myth that liquid yeast is more expensive than dried yeast. This is a good read
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/06/18/beer-yeast-fermentation-and-home-brewing/