Learning the chemistry

[bmass96]

Hi chaps,

I was looking to start learning the in depth details of brewing, that would perhaps set me in good stead as I'm looking for a change in career at the moment, really looking to get into the brewing industry and follow my passion for great beer!

I've been in contact with a brewery recently and they've told me that the beer series by brewers publications and pretty much anything from Professor Charles Bamforth are worth a read to understand the chemistry of brewing.

I'm yet to read anything from either of the above at the moment but wondered - does anyone else have any recommendations for learning the chemistry? Any other things to read or do? If anyone is currently in the brewing industry and has any recommendations too then that'd be even more brilliant!

Cheers!

 

[Hoddy]

So i have recently completed the IBD (institute of brewing and distilling) course which is a 5 day intensive course setup to allow you to go and study to be able to take the exam. Or take it straight away. To then become "qualified" in commercial brewing. To a point obvisously......

It was a seriously tough week where you got into the deepest depths of the chemical, biological and mechanical natures of brewing and brewing processes.

I have read many many books like you describe, i have worked in breweries on a volunteer basis, and home brewed around 100 gyles in 4 (maybe 5 years) plus i have worked in the process industry for the last 18+ years.

I found the course tough, and heavy going even with my knowledge and experience. But it really has set me up with the further knowledge and also confidence that i do know enough to go pro.

There were however a few guys on the course who had only been brewing a year max, or even one who hadn't at all. And they found it really really hard. To the point that i even think it was possible a waste of their time and money (it really wasn't cheap) because there was so much stuff you needed to have prior knowledge of.

My advice to you is read, brew, read some more, ask questions, brew some more, read again and then repeat. And then once you have 30/40 brews under your belt (with a plan to learn the mechanics and chemistry of whats happening) then look at something like a brewing chemistry course.

Thats just my view.........

 

[bmass96]

So i have recently completed the IBD (institute of brewing and distilling) course which is a 5 day intensive course setup to allow you to go and study to be able to take the exam. Or take it straight away. To then become "qualified" in commercial brewing. To a point obvisously......

It was a seriously tough week where you got into the deepest depths of the chemical, biological and mechanical natures of brewing and brewing processes.

I have read many many books like you describe, i have worked in breweries on a volunteer basis, and home brewed around 100 gyles in 4 (maybe 5 years) plus i have worked in the process industry for the last 18+ years.

I found the course tough, and heavy going even with my knowledge and experience. But it really has set me up with the further knowledge and also confidence that i do know enough to go pro.

There were however a few guys on the course who had only been brewing a year max, or even one who hadn't at all. And they found it really really hard. To the point that i even think it was possible a waste of their time and money (it really wasn't cheap) because there was so much stuff you needed to have prior knowledge of.

My advice to you is read, brew, read some more, ask questions, brew some more, read again and then repeat. And then once you have 30/40 brews under your belt (with a plan to learn the mechanics and chemistry of whats happening) then look at something like a brewing chemistry course.

Thats just my view.........

Hi Hoddy,

Thanks for your response - I've seen probably the same course from IBD and wondered if it'd perhaps be worth it. From what you've said, it's clear that it isn't for me at the moment, to say the least! It's good to hear from someone who has done it though.

I'm gonna continue to brew and see how I get on, definitely. Next brew day is this weekend, a NEIPA, in fact. I really want to start brewing more frequently - my last brew was back at the beginning of December so I guess this is a fair gap between brews...

Out of interest - what breweries did you work for on a voluntary basis?

Cheers again!

 

[Clint]

That's great advice! Pity the Boddingtons lot don't take it!

 

[Hoddy]

Hi Hoddy,

Thanks for your response - I've seen probably the same course from IBD and wondered if it'd perhaps be worth it. From what you've said, it's clear that it isn't for me at the moment, to say the least! It's good to hear from someone who has done it though.

I'm gonna continue to brew and see how I get on, definitely. Next brew day is this weekend, a NEIPA, in fact. I really want to start brewing more frequently - my last brew was back at the beginning of December so I guess this is a fair gap between brews...

Out of interest - what breweries did you work for on a voluntary basis?

Cheers again!

Yeah no probs. So i have worked at Twickenham Real Ales, New Bristol Brewery, plus i have hung out with and helped Unity Brewing, Elusive and Hogs back plus i worked in the brewing industry in the late 90's

If you want to learn do contact breweries and offer your services for free. As long as your prepared to get stuck in and do the donkey work and now get in the way (and ask sensible questions) most places will be more than happy to have you.

 

[Clint]

It's amazing my father in law worked for Wrexham Lager Brewery ,for the best part of 30 years,the UK's first lager brewery founded in 1882 by my brother in law's family who were German immigrants...I think...
He says he can't remember half of it ...

 

[bmass96]

Yeah no probs. So i have worked at Twickenham Real Ales, New Bristol Brewery, plus i have hung out with and helped Unity Brewing, Elusive and Hogs back plus i worked in the brewing industry in the late 90's

If you want to learn do contact breweries and offer your services for free. As long as your prepared to get stuck in and do the donkey work and now get in the way (and ask sensible questions) most places will be more than happy to have you.

Cheers. Yeah, I have contacted one brewery but haven't heard anything back as of yet so will go to other places offering my services and hopefully someone will come back to me. Just hope I don't ask stupid questions haha!

Thanks again though for the brilliant advice!

 

[Crystal_Ball]

So i have recently completed the IBD (institute of brewing and distilling) course which is a 5 day intensive course setup to allow you to go and study to be able to take the exam. Or take it straight away. To then become "qualified" in commercial brewing. To a point obvisously......

It was a seriously tough week where you got into the deepest depths of the chemical, biological and mechanical natures of brewing and brewing processes.

I have read many many books like you describe, i have worked in breweries on a volunteer basis, and home brewed around 100 gyles in 4 (maybe 5 years) plus i have worked in the process industry for the last 18+ years.

I found the course tough, and heavy going even with my knowledge and experience. But it really has set me up with the further knowledge and also confidence that i do know enough to go pro.

There were however a few guys on the course who had only been brewing a year max, or even one who hadn't at all. And they found it really really hard. To the point that i even think it was possible a waste of their time and money (it really wasn't cheap) because there was so much stuff you needed to have prior knowledge of.

My advice to you is read, brew, read some more, ask questions, brew some more, read again and then repeat. And then once you have 30/40 brews under your belt (with a plan to learn the mechanics and chemistry of whats happening) then look at something like a brewing chemistry course.

Thats just my view.........

Very interested to hear that you have completed this course as it’s something that I have looked into but hadn’t asked anyone on here if they had knowledge or experience of the IBD qualifications. Sounds like I need to do a bit more reading to get the science knowledge behind me especially as I have some of the books quoted in this thread. I worked at Hammerton brewery for the day which was a great hands on experience. If I have more questions about the qualifications I know who I’ll be coming to now,
Is that your intention to go pro?

 

[stz]

What do you want to do? Jobs at a lot of breweries are a case of right place, right time. You've got to be willing to do all the rubbish jobs under adverse conditions for low pay. The industry can be quite exploitative in that regards, high staff turnover, but it isn't that far from working in a kitchen or similar, genuine opportunities come up for the right people and you've got to love what you do because otherwise it doesn't give an adequate return on investment. Jobs are better (more organised) breweries often ask for experience and/or a GBC as a minimum, Jobs at good breweries will want both and will be much more competitive though if you are completely brilliant (can drive a van!) you can often bypass some of it for smaller firms.

A sad fact is that at an entry level you can teach a monkey to brew. It is just about following a series of steps. Others in the brewery will not really want help with chemistry, recipe development and so on from their new cask washer though if you know these things and you keep washing the casks whiling figuring out a way to implement them eventually you'll be washing less casks and you might find yourself with a monkey of your own to free you up to do more interesting jobs. This is at the small microbrewery stage. Once they get a bit bigger things get more specialised. There needs to be a strong production focus, people management, all the usual stuff. You don't need to know how to brew to follow a SOP.

This sounds horrible, but the only time I want volunteers is when we've festivals (bar work) or possibly packaging (canning). Everything else would hold us up because making sure you were safe and double checking your work would slow us down. When I'm busy I've structured my time pretty much down to the minute, two of us produce a little over 2000bbl a year, cask, keg, bottle, can and this often feels slack, one brewer can pretty much brew and package three brews a week, 10-11bbl, 128bbl of tank space. Also going to throw in that a lot of discussion about theoretical chemistry is instantly defeated in the face of "we've always done it this way" and "can you prove it on this scale on this plant against a production schedule?" and you might have a wonderful idea, but do you have the time and experience to source, budget, perform cost benefit analysis of and fully commission whatever process improvement you want to try out against a production schedule?

 

[Brewed_Force]

I have offered my services on a voluntary basis to several breweries, as a beer taster, but have so far had no replies.......

 

[Sadfield]

There was thread on twitter some time ago, where industry people from the likes of Thornbridge, adnams, simplyhops, were discussing which texts they still find most useful. Along with the work of authors like Charles Bamforth and Wolfgang Kunze (more technical than chemistry), Brewing Science and Practice 1 & 2 got mentioned a number of times. I was led to believe most of the IBD course is based on it. Brewing by Lewis and Young, also.


More science than I need, although I'm slowly chipping away at it, and forcing my way through the malting side of it, before I get to the good stuff.

 

[Clint]

I often wonder about whether people who could make great beer who went on to brewing for a living and making a huge success of it go back and learn all the science stuff ...

 

[Hoddy]

I often wonder about whether people who could make great beer who went on to brewing for a living and making a huge success of it go back and learn all the science stuff ...

You have made a good point there Clint. There are some people who are great beer designers and brewers but don't go into the commercial output game. And there are people who aren't great beer designers but do go into the commercial game.

 

[Hoddy]

What do you want to do? Jobs at a lot of breweries are a case of right place, right time. You've got to be willing to do all the rubbish jobs under adverse conditions for low pay. The industry can be quite exploitative in that regards, high staff turnover, but it isn't that far from working in a kitchen or similar, genuine opportunities come up for the right people and you've got to love what you do because otherwise it doesn't give an adequate return on investment. Jobs are better (more organised) breweries often ask for experience and/or a GBC as a minimum, Jobs at good breweries will want both and will be much more competitive though if you are completely brilliant (can drive a van!) you can often bypass some of it for smaller firms.

A sad fact is that at an entry level you can teach a monkey to brew. It is just about following a series of steps. Others in the brewery will not really want help with chemistry, recipe development and so on from their new cask washer though if you know these things and you keep washing the casks whiling figuring out a way to implement them eventually you'll be washing less casks and you might find yourself with a monkey of your own to free you up to do more interesting jobs. This is at the small microbrewery stage. Once they get a bit bigger things get more specialised. There needs to be a strong production focus, people management, all the usual stuff. You don't need to know how to brew to follow a SOP.

This sounds horrible, but the only time I want volunteers is when we've festivals (bar work) or possibly packaging (canning). Everything else would hold us up because making sure you were safe and double checking your work would slow us down. When I'm busy I've structured my time pretty much down to the minute, two of us produce a little over 2000bbl a year, cask, keg, bottle, can and this often feels slack, one brewer can pretty much brew and package three brews a week, 10-11bbl, 128bbl of tank space. Also going to throw in that a lot of discussion about theoretical chemistry is instantly defeated in the face of "we've always done it this way" and "can you prove it on this scale on this plant against a production schedule?" and you might have a wonderful idea, but do you have the time and experience to source, budget, perform cost benefit analysis of and fully commission whatever process improvement you want to try out against a production schedule?

I agree with what you say. I think for me, and where i would like to take the manufacture and innovation of beer design. There is a certain element of being validated that i am "good enough" and that i am able to properly stand up to the scrutiny of a very experienced and skilled brewer so that if i "did" go for it, i at least have that capability to take my beers where i would like to go.

 

[Sadfield]

I often wonder about whether people who could make great beer who went on to brewing for a living and making a huge success of it go back and learn all the science stuff ...

I think you need to, in order to make good beer consistently. That is, brewing the same beer with consistency, despite all the variables.

 

[chthon]

I think you need to, in order to make good beer consistently. That is, brewing the same beer with consistency, despite all the variables.

Yes, it's called engineering.

 

[stz]

I agree with what you say. I think for me, and where i would like to take the manufacture and innovation of beer design.

The most horrific part of working professionally is the reality of sales. A lot of customers want rather predicable things ... like the best they can have for the lowest price they can get. The end consumer, the beer geek, the reviewer and so on is a tiny minority compared to the person who just wants plenty of it for as little as possible. A lot of innovation and design comes from utilising your brew house in novel ways to make the best beer you can within the limits of what you've got. Overall cost (time in tank, ingredients) opportunity cost (can we make twice as much of something half as good, but two thirds of the price in the same timespan) are often higher priorities than the minor technical details. Ideally the beer always comes first and as a brewer that is the corner I fight in the brewery, that is part of the job. Arguing that the pinnacle of my creative and technical expertise is going to be a crowd pleaser! Sometimes satisfaction comes from process improvements that result in greater efficiencies, a big part of working commercially is about process improvements that do not necessarily result in better tasting beer, but better beer as in a lower price point, a more stable product, less overall resources used, a safer process and working environment.

On another depressing level is the fact that plenty of people buy breweries, get given a manual and walked through their first brew and they are out there producing beer. Want to treat the water? Get a report from a supplier of a jerry can of chemicals and apply the chemicals at the recommended rate. Want a recipe? Malt suppliers, hop factors will supply those too. Too busy to brew it yourself? Hire a brewer and tell them to follow the steps exactly. Deviation isn't wanted or required, you don't need to know the details until you need to know them and plenty of people will be happy to handle them for you. You might think you can make the beer better, but can you do it within the same time frame and for the same cost or less? Maybe making it better is a risk, perhaps people prefer it already, if it anit broke and so on.

I use base salts for water treatment, basic acids etc wherever possible because they are cheaper than branded mixtures. This requires an understanding, but is that understanding worth anything extra? You buy a branded mixture, the supplier handles the thinking work, you pay a little more per brew as a result, but you can hire somebody far less capable for a lower salary. We also have a mini lab which wasn't free to setup and maintain. It is like keeping a house culture going, we do that ultimately because it is much cheaper than using dry yeast. I love that we keep a house strain, I like the history of it, the unique footprint, love the creativity of working with wet yeasts, but have to be able to do basic micro work and know what I'm doing to deal with it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my job on a good day and rarely have bad days, but unless you own a brewery you have to work with other people who all have other focuses, hopefully if they stay in business they relate mostly to money.

 

[bmass96]

What do you want to do? Jobs at a lot of breweries are a case of right place, right time. You've got to be willing to do all the rubbish jobs under adverse conditions for low pay. The industry can be quite exploitative in that regards, high staff turnover, but it isn't that far from working in a kitchen or similar, genuine opportunities come up for the right people and you've got to love what you do because otherwise it doesn't give an adequate return on investment. Jobs are better (more organised) breweries often ask for experience and/or a GBC as a minimum, Jobs at good breweries will want both and will be much more competitive though if you are completely brilliant (can drive a van!) you can often bypass some of it for smaller firms.

A sad fact is that at an entry level you can teach a monkey to brew. It is just about following a series of steps. Others in the brewery will not really want help with chemistry, recipe development and so on from their new cask washer though if you know these things and you keep washing the casks whiling figuring out a way to implement them eventually you'll be washing less casks and you might find yourself with a monkey of your own to free you up to do more interesting jobs. This is at the small microbrewery stage. Once they get a bit bigger things get more specialised. There needs to be a strong production focus, people management, all the usual stuff. You don't need to know how to brew to follow a SOP.

This sounds horrible, but the only time I want volunteers is when we've festivals (bar work) or possibly packaging (canning). Everything else would hold us up because making sure you were safe and double checking your work would slow us down. When I'm busy I've structured my time pretty much down to the minute, two of us produce a little over 2000bbl a year, cask, keg, bottle, can and this often feels slack, one brewer can pretty much brew and package three brews a week, 10-11bbl, 128bbl of tank space. Also going to throw in that a lot of discussion about theoretical chemistry is instantly defeated in the face of "we've always done it this way" and "can you prove it on this scale on this plant against a production schedule?" and you might have a wonderful idea, but do you have the time and experience to source, budget, perform cost benefit analysis of and fully commission whatever process improvement you want to try out against a production schedule?

Well, currently I'd just like to do anything really without suffering financially of course. I've seen a fair few brewery assistant positions going recently but haven't thought I'd be anywhere near that yet. I'm going to keep at the homebrewing as I enjoy it but for a bit I've wanted a change in career.

I see Tiny Rebel do apprenticeships which is a great opportunity, but as I say financially I wouldn't be able to afford it. Would rather stick to homebrewing and do bits for breweries in my spare time to learn and then go into it.