Lager too malty, what to change for next time?

[cosgrove1982]

Hi.

I've made my first 2 all grain brews and they're a bit too my for my taste so looking for a bit of help.
Here's what I did:

I used brew in a bag method.

4.7kg of pilsener malt. Target batch was 23 L so had volume in pot of around 30l.
Steeped and stirred grain at 67 deg C for 60 mins. Took grain out, then boiled for 90 minutes. Took about 25 min at least to bring to the boil. Hop additions at 60 30 and 15. Slightly under hopped flavour so will increase for next time.

Gravity was quite high after it cooled overnight (7 percent potential) so diluted to five. At this point it was around 24l. Then added a 2 litre starter made from pale DME.
Yeast was 34/70 saflager. Fermented in temp controlled fridge at 15C, diacetyl rest for 5 days after 1 week, then lagered in fridge for about a month.

Tastes clean, not much hop bitterness or flavour but a bit too malty. Was supposed to be a budvar clone......would be happy with it just tasting like a lager lol.


Any suggestions as to what to do?

Thinking maybe reducing temperature?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Cheers !

 

[RichardM]

Lagers are supposed to be "clean" with little hop flavour or aroma. If you want to change it then more hops are needed (you don't say what quantities you used), early in the boil for bitterness, later for flavour and aroma, or maybe even dry hop.
The mash temp might make a difference as well, but someone more knowledgeable than me will confirm.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

What was your original gravity reading? Seems odd how you could potentially have got 7% abv from a 23l batch using 4.7kg malt.

 

[cosgrove1982]

Thanks for the replies. Richard, not too fussed about the hop profile for now, think I just need to add a bit more at each stage. From memory I think I had around 45g, 20g 20g or something.

It wasn't 7 percent ABV. When I finished the boil it showed 7 percent potential on the hydrometer and I diluted it back down until it was around 5 percent. So either I got a bit more efficiency than was expected, or boiled off more water than expected, or some combination of the two.

Any ideas on how to make it less malty?

Thanks

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

It wasn't 7 percent ABV. When I finished the boil it showed 7 percent potential on the hydrometer and I diluted it back down until it was around 5 percent.

just wondered what was the original hydrometer reading?

 

[cosgrove1982]

The reading on the hydrometer was 7 percent potential alcohol. I don't have one to hand to do the conversion to specific gravity. I diluted it until it showed 5. I don't have any other readings
Does that help?

Thanks

 

[Pennine]

I would consider adjuncts like corn or rice if you don't like it malty. Or also targeting less than 5% abv will help. Although Budvar is malty and sweet to me, have you tasted it side by side with yours?

 

[An Ankoù]

You can lighten the malt flavour by using up to 20% torrified flaked rice.

 

[Norfolk79]

The reading on the hydrometer was 7 percent potential alcohol. I don't have one to hand to do the conversion to specific gravity. I diluted it until it showed 5. I don't have any other readings
Does that help?

Thanks

Sounds like a wine hydrometer, so probably in the 1.050-1.055 area. As wine ferment much lower than beer you would have been looking at roughly about a 5% beer before dilution. Somebody in the know please correct me if I’m wrong though.

 

[pms67]

Flaked rice or corn seem to be the main thing in these type of beers in Greg Hughes book I think

 

[Brewnaldo]

You can lighten the malt flavour by using up to 20% torrified flaked rice.

My mate made GH Japanese Rice Lager which was very very pale and very clean tasting. He had over hopped it so it was bitterer than intended but although he thought it was ruined, I actually quite liked it. The rice certainly did as intended though.

I personally have used flaked maize twice in lagers. I dont mind it but for a cleaner flavour I would say rice yielded a better result.

 

[MickDundee]

My mate made GH Japanese Rice Lager which was very very pale and very clean tasting. He had over hopped it so it was bitterer than intended but although he thought it was ruined, I actually quite liked it. The rice certainly did as intended though.

I kegged the GH rice lager yesterday and had a sneaky taste last night. I pressure fermented for the first time and 4 hours at 25PSI got it fully carbonated. Absolute game changer!

It’s super clean already probably the crispest lager I’ve made - I’m not sure if that’s the rice or the pressure ferment or a combination of the 2. I have a Munich Helles planned for the brew after next so I’ll find out at Christmas time whether the pressure ferment helped with the crispness.

Unlike your mate, I’m wishing I’d put more hops in it but I’m hoping once it clears more the hops will come through better like my Czech Pale did.

 

[Brewnaldo]

I kegged the GH rice lager yesterday and had a sneaky taste last night. I pressure fermented for the first time and 4 hours at 25PSI got it fully carbonated. Absolute game changer!

It’s super clean already probably the crispest lager I’ve made - I’m not sure if that’s the rice or the pressure ferment or a combination of the 2. I have a Munich Helles planned for the brew after next so I’ll find out at Christmas time whether the pressure ferment helped with the crispness.

Unlike your mate, I’m wishing I’d put more hops in it but I’m hoping once it clears more the hops will come through better like my Czech Pale did.

I am just about to begin my pressure fermenting journey. Just waiting on a spunding valve coming. I may pick your brain at a later date over this if you dont mind

 

[MickDundee]

I am just about to begin my pressure fermenting journey. Just waiting on a spunding valve coming. I may pick your brain at a later date over this if you dont mind

No problem, it might be a bit blind leading the blind because I’ve only done one pressure ferment. Number 2 (NEIPA) will hopefully be started in the next couple of days, depending on the rest of my hops arriving.

 

[Brewnaldo]

No problem, it might be a bit blind leading the blind because I’ve only done one pressure ferment. Number 2 (NEIPA) will hopefully be started in the next couple of days, depending on the rest of my hops arriving.

Once I have done one or two pressure ferments and had a bit of practice with closed transfer I will attempt NEIPA. I need to get upgraded from 16g CO2 bulbs though. Would burn through them I imagine doing that sort of stuff

 

[Saisonator]

I just bought a keg, floating dip tube and spunding valve from Brewkegtap, so I can pressure ferment. Also looking forward to making a Budvar clone.
I made one a while back and it was also a bit too malty, it was fermented cool. I wondered if the flavour was coming from the yeast. So pressure fermenting should make it cleaner tasting.

 

[cosgrove1982]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to try a lower temp mash next time. I've seen that 62-64C might produce a drier beer. As I remember, my first 2 brews were at least 67. I was concerned about losing too much heat during the mash so it might well have been a few degrees over.
I'll reduce the amount of malt too, aiming for 4%, and if I hit that bang on will add some sugar to increase the alcohol a bit.
Does this sound sensible?
Cheers :)

 

[foxbat]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to try a lower temp mash next time. I've seen that 62-64C might produce a drier beer. As I remember, my first 2 brews were at least 67. I was concerned about losing too much heat during the mash so it might well have been a few degrees over.
I'll reduce the amount of malt too, aiming for 4%, and if I hit that bang on will add some sugar to increase the alcohol a bit.
Does this sound sensible?
Cheers :)

Replace about 10-20% of the malt bill with dextrose (you can add that any time during the boil). That's how Belgian Blondes (yes, an ale but the principal is the same) are so dangerously drinkable despite being upwards of 7%. Don't bother with anything else. Just pilsner malt and brewing sugar is all you need. Lagers are not complicated recipes.

 

[Furry Shark Brewery]

My mate made GH Japanese Rice Lager which was very very pale and very clean tasting. He had over hopped it so it was bitterer than intended but although he thought it was ruined, I actually quite liked it. The rice certainly did as intended though.

I personally have used flaked maize twice in lagers. I dont mind it but for a cleaner flavour I would say rice yielded a better result.

Good to hear as I plan to make this very recipe on Friday. Got the Wyeast starter on the go. I'll be sticking with the original recipe but may tweak with future batches. Looking forward to it.

 

[mabrungard]

What was your water like? It sounds like the beer needs a bit more of a drying finish. Try adding a thin pinch of gypsum to a pint of the beer and stir it in. That addition is roughly 100 ppm sulfate.

See if its dry enough for you. Sulfate helps dry the beer's finish. That will help deemphasize the malt.