Lager kits, best fermenting temperature?

[proost]

Hello Chaps,
I only brew using kits, having only started in Jan this year other methods will have to wait. I only brew ale in a homemade heated brew box with excellent results. Have done 10 so far with only one setback.

Right, I have a working but redundant fridge/freezer and have a few questions.

1. What is the best temperature to ferment a lager (kit only)?
2. Does anyone know if it is possible to use the fridge for brewing lager and still keep the freezer for freezing food?
3. Can I wire in a temp controller to ONLY regulate the fridge and still use the freezer? If so,how? Is the freezer temp. preset?
4. Can I disconnect the freezer and still use the fridge?
5. Best lager kits?

Any advice?

Cheers all

:wha:

 

[Tean Buns]

Lager kits are supplied with ale yeasts so there is little point in building yourself a kegerator in this case. Standard ale temperatures, 18°C to 22°C.

If you are going to put an external thermostat on your fridge (I have been looking into this, purely for the summer months where my cellar gets up to 25°C easily) then I suspect the freezer box would not work at the correct temperature, to be avoided I would think. The external thermostats I have seen work by cutting off the power at the source, this means that the whole fridge has no power ... if you know how to wire them up so that each element works individually, let me know how you do it.

disconnect the freezer ... no idea, but I doubt it.

But there is another consideration here, the microbiological one. The household fridge is chockablock full of nasty beasties, you would be MUCH better off just reserving your kegerator for beer production only, just to be on the safe side.

best lager kits ... my neighbours have liked the Bulldog Hammer of Thor but it gives results more in line with a strong Belgian ale rather than a lager. I haven't tried any others, except the Hambleton Bard dry malt kit but that was over 20 years ago so I can't really remember.

Hope that is useful

:hat:

 

[ericmark]

It is unlikely you can reverse engineer the PIC's in a fridge freezer and be able to re-program to different temperatures. In the main those repairing a fridge freezer will renew complete boards and I know of no one who has tried to write their own program.

In any case the cost of a PIC programmer means it's not really an economic option.

I got caught out with Lager temperature I had read all the theroy and decided to swap the yeast in a lager kit which clearly with instructions to brew at 20 degs C was not using a Lager yeast.

So off to local brew centre and bought a packet of Youngs Lager Yeast and put brew in garage which sits at around 10 degs C in the Winter. However that strain of yeast it would seem was extremely slow at those temperatures. At 18 degs C it runs well but at 10 degs next to nothing.

Clearly from other posts there are yeasts that will work at low temperatures but after may failed attempt I question the whole idea of lagering a kit beer. The idea of Lager is to make a beer that can be stored for longer than a non lagered beer. I am told normal beer at 5% ABV will keep a year only when the ABV is rather low is there a problem keeping a beer for a long time. So unless brewing a very weak beer why use Lager process at home?

I made up a Geordie kit of Lager tasting beer at normal 20 degs C and it worked fine so why mess around with fridges?

 

[winelight]

You can do what you like to any fridge and/or fridge freezer simply by using a temperature controller such as the STC-1000, wired directly to the compressor. Now, the problem is that some fridge/freezers will have only one compressor - then you're stuffed. But if they have one each, you can simply disconnect the fridge compressor from any of the fridge/freezer electronics, and wire it into the STC-1000 instead. Of course, if it's just a fridge, then there will only be one compressor anyway, so disconnect it from any electronics, thermostat, light etc. and wire into your STC-1000 instead.

 

[proost]

Lager kits are supplied with ale yeasts so there is little point in building yourself a kegerator in this case. Standard ale temperatures, 18°C to 22°C.

If you are going to put an external thermostat on your fridge (I have been looking into this, purely for the summer months where my cellar gets up to 25°C easily) then I suspect the freezer box would not work at the correct temperature, to be avoided I would think. The external thermostats I have seen work by cutting off the power at the source, this means that the whole fridge has no power ... if you know how to wire them up so that each element works individually, let me know how you do it.

disconnect the freezer ... no idea, but I doubt it.

But there is another consideration here, the microbiological one. The household fridge is chockablock full of nasty beasties, you would be MUCH better off just reserving your kegerator for beer production only, just to be on the safe side.

best lager kits ... my neighbours have liked the Bulldog Hammer of Thor but it gives results more in line with a strong Belgian ale rather than a lager. I haven't tried any others, except the Hambleton Bard dry malt kit but that was over 20 years ago so I can't really remember.

Hope that is useful

:hat:

I have done a Wilcos Delicate Pilsner using Saflager S-23 and managed to keep the temperature at about 15/16c in my brew box. It fermented out in 12 days and has been stored in the above fridge/freezer at about 6c for 12 days so far.The reason I want use the f/freezer is we have bought another one as the guvnor said it was getting too tatty, so I thought I could maybe use it in the summer for brewing. If I can use it I'll post an update.

Cheers

:razz:

 

[proost]

You can do what you like to any fridge and/or fridge freezer simply by using a temperature controller such as the STC-1000, wired directly to the compressor. Now, the problem is that some fridge/freezers will have only one compressor - then you're stuffed. But if they have one each, you can simply disconnect the fridge compressor from any of the fridge/freezer electronics, and wire it into the STC-1000 instead. Of course, if it's just a fridge, then there will only be one compressor anyway, so disconnect it from any electronics, thermostat, light etc. and wire into your STC-1000 instead.

Yea, I'll have to have a peek behind it to see what's it got.

Cheers

:thumb:

 

[proost]

It is unlikely you can reverse engineer the PIC's in a fridge freezer and be able to re-program to different temperatures. In the main those repairing a fridge freezer will renew complete boards and I know of no one who has tried to write their own program.

In any case the cost of a PIC programmer means it's not really an economic option.

I got caught out with Lager temperature I had read all the theroy and decided to swap the yeast in a lager kit which clearly with instructions to brew at 20 degs C was not using a Lager yeast.

So off to local brew centre and bought a packet of Youngs Lager Yeast and put brew in garage which sits at around 10 degs C in the Winter. However that strain of yeast it would seem was extremely slow at those temperatures. At 18 degs C it runs well but at 10 degs next to nothing.

Clearly from other posts there are yeasts that will work at low temperatures but after may failed attempt I question the whole idea of lagering a kit beer. The idea of Lager is to make a beer that can be stored for longer than a non lagered beer. I am told normal beer at 5% ABV will keep a year only when the ABV is rather low is there a problem keeping a beer for a long time. So unless brewing a very weak beer why use Lager process at home?

I made up a Geordie kit of Lager tasting beer at normal 20 degs C and it worked fine so why mess around with fridges?

The only reason I'm trying to brew lager is mainly for my heathen mates who don't like proper beer! I don't even drink the stuff.

:-D

 

[midnight rider]

Hello Chaps,
I only brew using kits, having only started in Jan this year other methods will have to wait. I only brew ale in a homemade heated brew box with excellent results. Have done 10 so far with only one setback.

Right, I have a working but redundant fridge/freezer and have a few questions.

1. What is the best temperature to ferment a lager (kit only)?
2. Does anyone know if it is possible to use the fridge for brewing lager and still keep the freezer for freezing food?
3. Can I wire in a temp controller to ONLY regulate the fridge and still use the freezer? If so,how? Is the freezer temp. preset?
4. Can I disconnect the freezer and still use the fridge?
5. Best lager kits?

Any advice?

Cheers all

:wha:

I'm impressed that you're going to brew a lager already. In my limited experience only the very best home brewers can make a decent lager - the whole lagering process is complicated and delicate, much more difficult than ale. And even with these very experienced guys the lager is not as good as you can get in the shops whereas the ale you brew is often as good or better.

My advice: brew a blonde ale instead! Most your 'heathen mates' won't know the difference and you get to enjoy a good brew yourself :-P

 

[proost]

I'm impressed that you're going to brew a lager already. In my limited experience only the very best home brewers can make a decent lager - the whole lagering process is complicated and delicate, much more difficult than ale. And even with these very experienced guys the lager is not as good as you can get in the shops whereas the ale you brew is often as good or better.

My advice: brew a blonde ale instead! Most your 'heathen mates' won't know the difference and you get to enjoy a good brew yourself :-P

Excuse me! are you saying I'm not one of the "best home brewers" !!!
Yea, your probably right. Its just that Iv'e got a f/freezer doing nothing in my garage and thought it is a waste not to use it. I really want to keep brewing through the summer and it looks like its going to be too warm to brew an ale.

:wha:

 

[midnight rider]

Excuse me! are you saying I'm not one of the "best home brewers" !!!

:wha:

Oops! When you stated that you only started brewing three months ago, I assumed that, like me, you were still on the learning curve.
:thumb:

 

[ericmark]

I have just been reading John Palmer's web site again. OK USA but seems a good start for most brewing problems. I wanted to see how to use a yeast without buying extra packets for each brew so was reading the bit on yeast.

What he says is dried yeast for lager needs around the 18 degrees C mark and only wet yeasts will run at the lower temperatures wish I had read this earlier.

My local brew shop only sells dried yeast and clearly any kit comes with dried yeast so unless you have some assess to wet yeast than looking at 18 degrees C.

I am sure in the summer you will need a fridge but for most of the year in UK we are looking at heating not cooling to maintain at 18 degrees C.

The big problem is ambient temperature day and night will vary and what is required is a large heat sink which will absorb heat during the day and emit heat at night to keep the heat at an average level. I have an area of the house called a garage (never been used to store a car) which maintains the average temperature quite well which is below 18 degrees C for most of the year even at the peaks.

So from an engineering point of view brewing in the garage will only require heat it will not require cooling. However the problem is to keep a constant temperature. Most electronic air thermostats will keep temperature to +/- 0.5 degrees of set temperature and 25 litres of liquid takes some heating and cooling so any cupboard with thermostat and heater will keep 25 litres at a steady temperature. But move the beer into 5 litre containers then the cupboard temperature needs to be far more steady. You of course need air space and the fridge or freezer compartment I question is large enough to put a 30 litre container in it with air circulating around it?

I am looking at this as an engineering problem rather than brewing problem but likely an old wardrobe in the garage with a simple thermostat and 25 Watt bulb in the bottom and a small fan to circulate the air would do a better job at maintaining 25 litres of liquid at a constant 18 degrees than a fridge in the UK for most of the year.

In my case with central heating running during winter months my kitchen will keep 25 litres in a 30 litre container at 18 degrees C it is warming during the day and cooling at night but 25 litres takes quite a bit of heating and cooling to change it's temperature so the stick on thermometer strip shows nearly steady 18 degrees.

However the fermentation it's self produces heat and if I cover the same fermenter with a body warmer then for first week when activity is high it will hold at 20 degrees C. Second week as activity drops off it will cool to 18 degrees C. So for me answer is simple lager only when central heating is required no body warmer. Ale all year around and when central heating is required use body warmer to get extra 2 degrees.

OK if you are going to buy wet yeast and brew at less than 18 degrees then the time of year when you can brew is more limited without a fridge. But is Lager is only for visitors then winter brewing is likely enough no need to go to all the work of converting a fridge.

As to how a kit designed to be used with one yeast will taste with a different yeast is another question. Plus how some one who likes a dark ale will be able to judge if a light ale tastes good when they don't like it any way is another question?

 

[Derek1]

The only reason I'm trying to brew lager is mainly for my heathen mates who don't like proper beer! I don't even drink the stuff.

:-D

I also want to brew a lager that lager lovers will recognise as a lager, and also am a kit only brewer. The only difference is that I also like to drink a good lager with a barbie....

I have bought a lager kit, and have bought a lager yeast that I was thinking to use in place of the kit supplied yeast, and had naively hoped to ferment it in a regular fridge in the garage with the fridge controller set to maximum temperature, in the hope of achieving a temperature in excess of 12C - to be fair, I haven't done a temperature trial to see how feasible this is, so apologies if this is totally stupid!

 

[proost]

Oops! When you stated that you only started brewing three months ago, I assumed that, like me, you were still on the learning curve.
:thumb:

Yea, I am!
Its just that its an impatient learning curve. :grin:

 

[proost]

I have just been reading John Palmer's web site again. OK USA but seems a good start for most brewing problems. I wanted to see how to use a yeast without buying extra packets for each brew so was reading the bit on yeast.

What he says is dried yeast for lager needs around the 18 degrees C mark and only wet yeasts will run at the lower temperatures wish I had read this earlier.

My local brew shop only sells dried yeast and clearly any kit comes with dried yeast so unless you have some assess to wet yeast than looking at 18 degrees C.

I am sure in the summer you will need a fridge but for most of the year in UK we are looking at heating not cooling to maintain at 18 degrees C.

The big problem is ambient temperature day and night will vary and what is required is a large heat sink which will absorb heat during the day and emit heat at night to keep the heat at an average level. I have an area of the house called a garage (never been used to store a car) which maintains the average temperature quite well which is below 18 degrees C for most of the year even at the peaks.

So from an engineering point of view brewing in the garage will only require heat it will not require cooling. However the problem is to keep a constant temperature. Most electronic air thermostats will keep temperature to +/- 0.5 degrees of set temperature and 25 litres of liquid takes some heating and cooling so any cupboard with thermostat and heater will keep 25 litres at a steady temperature. But move the beer into 5 litre containers then the cupboard temperature needs to be far more steady. You of course need air space and the fridge or freezer compartment I question is large enough to put a 30 litre container in it with air circulating around it?

I am looking at this as an engineering problem rather than brewing problem but likely an old wardrobe in the garage with a simple thermostat and 25 Watt bulb in the bottom and a small fan to circulate the air would do a better job at maintaining 25 litres of liquid at a constant 18 degrees than a fridge in the UK for most of the year.

In my case with central heating running during winter months my kitchen will keep 25 litres in a 30 litre container at 18 degrees C it is warming during the day and cooling at night but 25 litres takes quite a bit of heating and cooling to change it's temperature so the stick on thermometer strip shows nearly steady 18 degrees.

However the fermentation it's self produces heat and if I cover the same fermenter with a body warmer then for first week when activity is high it will hold at 20 degrees C. Second week as activity drops off it will cool to 18 degrees C. So for me answer is simple lager only when central heating is required no body warmer. Ale all year around and when central heating is required use body warmer to get extra 2 degrees.

OK if you are going to buy wet yeast and brew at less than 18 degrees then the time of year when you can brew is more limited without a fridge. But is Lager is only for visitors then winter brewing is likely enough no need to go to all the work of converting a fridge.

As to how a kit designed to be used with one yeast will taste with a different yeast is another question. Plus how some one who likes a dark ale will be able to judge if a light ale tastes good when they don't like it any way is another question?

Thanks for that, thats very interesting. At the moment I'm brewing using a home made insulated box with an stc-1000 and a 60w tube heater. This has proved to be very successful at keeping the temperature constant. We only moved here last autumn and I have only been using the brew box since January, so no idea of the temperature in the summer.
Anyway you have raised some interesting points.

Cheers

:thumb:

 

[proost]

I also want to brew a lager that lager lovers will recognise as a lager, and also am a kit only brewer. The only difference is that I also like to drink a good lager with a barbie....

I have bought a lager kit, and have bought a lager yeast that I was thinking to use in place of the kit supplied yeast, and had naively hoped to ferment it in a regular fridge in the garage with the fridge controller set to maximum temperature, in the hope of achieving a temperature in excess of 12C - to be fair, I haven't done a temperature trial to see how feasible this is, so apologies if this is totally stupid!

I left a thermostat in my fridge, turned it down to the lowest setting and at the top the reading was 6c. At the bottom it was 4c. :hmm:

 

[Derek1]

I left a thermostat in my fridge, turned it down to the lowest setting and at the top the reading was 6c. At the bottom it was 4c. :hmm:

There's that plan gone to pot then! I'll try leaving the fermenting vessel in the
coldest room in the house, and see how that works - or not, as the case will probably be!

 

[Tean Buns]

There's that plan gone to pot then! I'll try leaving the fermenting vessel in the
coldest room in the house, and see how that works - or not, as the case will probably be!

Will you still be using your lager yeast ? I have read in a couple of places that you can approximate a lager with the US 05 yeast, it's an ale yeast ... which seems like a much more simple solution. The Hammer of Thor kit supposedly has a varietal yeast, which the company blurb describes as a warm lager yeast, sounds like marketing BS to me but the yeast definitely does have a distinct fermentation and flavour profile. The yeast is not a particularly good flocculator and it produces lots of fruity notes. I wonder what sort it is ... ?

 

[Derek1]

Will you still be using your lager yeast ? I have read in a couple of places that you can approximate a lager with the US 05 yeast, it's an ale yeast ... which seems like a much more simple solution. The Hammer of Thor kit supposedly has a varietal yeast, which the company blurb describes as a warm lager yeast, sounds like marketing BS to me but the yeast definitely does have a distinct fermentation and flavour profile. The yeast is not a particularly good flocculator and it produces lots of fruity notes. I wonder what sort it is ... ?

I think I may try the lager yeast, then try the Hammer kit if I'm not impressed - I'll hope for a cold snap!

 

[proost]

There's that plan gone to pot then! I'll try leaving the fermenting vessel in the
coldest room in the house, and see how that works - or not, as the case will probably be!

Derek1,
Just realised I may have confused you. When I said I set the fridge to the lowest setting, I meant I set it to the lowest number on the thermostat. I'm going to turn it up to the highest setting today and see what the temperature is.

 

[ericmark]

Standard fridge setting is 4 degrees C and freezer -18 degrees C there are variations the cold room for keeping cheese was warmer around 10 degrees C.

My house is around 40% humidity so looking at wet/dry thermometer readings covering a vessel with wet cloth could cool it around 6 degrees C as humidity rises this will reduce outside at moment is 83% which would reduce temperature drop to 2 degrees C.

Not sure on what using a fan on wet cloth does? I know working in Algeria 1980's wagon drivers hung their water bottle covered in wet sacking from wing mirror so I assume air movement helps.

The more I think about it the more I am looking at DC at 12 volt. The French invented a semi-conductor device which when DC current is passed will transfer heat one side to the other. These are used a lot with cool boxes. The big thing is same unit will heat and cool according to direction of current flow. Often built into the lid of cool box very easy to mount on some other insulated box.

LED lights run from DC supply and the DC units are dropping in price so today getting a 10A 12V DC supply is easy and cheap.

So it's details of the stc-1000 which are important what is required is a three point control above x deg cool below y deg heat and between x and y do nothing. It seems from what I can find it will do this.

It would need a reversing relay and one diode. One end of coil and common goes to neg other end of coil goes to one output from stc-1000 with a diode also between coil and other com the other output goes to com. This would give three states cooling, off and heating. Diode big enough to take current to cool box lid.

Theory seems OK however not sure how it would work in practice. It does have advantage over most compressor fridges in single device will heat and cool.

Thoughts please.