Kits- "Twang" theory

[terrym]

So if its 'stale' LME that causes twang, when does LME go from being 'not stale' to 'stale'?

 

[Sadfield]

So if its 'stale' LME that causes twang, when does LME go from being 'not stale' to 'stale'?

As with anything, I don't think staling is a on/off binary thing, more an analogue deterioration.

Further to that, warm temperatures tend to accelerate staling, which leads me to think that the evaporation process to make extract, may also accelerate the staling of wort. AG brewers use wort within minutes of the end of the mash, or the next day in the most extreme cases, this freshness probably explains the lack of twang.

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[terrym]

As with anything, I don't think staling is a on/off binary thing, more an analogue deterioration.

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For the benefit of others that means LME slowly deteriorates.

Anyway whilst I could subscribe to this theory about stale LME causing twang, the biggest problem against it is that some LME and kits cause twang even if they are well within date. I know I've had experience of it. And conversely from what I've read on here, although I've no personal experience, people have made up kits outside the use by date and they have been fine.

So whilst I also believe it's an LME thing, exactly what remains a mystery. And greater minds that mine have not conclusively identified the cause or if they have they have not shared it with the rest of the world due to a vested interest (like an LME producer for example, who may have a commercial interest in maintaining the status quo).

 

[Sadfield]

For the benefit of others that means LME slowly deteriorates.

And DME, and wort freshly made from grain. The issue is rate of deterioration, accelerating factors and how soon products are used.

Raw milk, farm fresh tastes amazing. Pasteurise it, it'll still taste good but not as fresh. Store it well, it'll probably keep until the use by date. Leave it on a warm shelf in the sun and it'll be off within days.





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[Sadfield]

Double post.

 

[Thumper]

The use by date won't have anything to do with it going stale. It's related to whether or not it's safe to consume.

Stale bread is perfectly safe to consume, just not very nice. Logic dictates it would be the same with stale LME, especially considering the similarity in ingredients.

Extract probably goes stale long before the use by date.

 

[Covrich]

Yeah I would agree inconsistency in storage throughout its life can effect how well LME travels through time.

The better quality kits tend to come with dry hops which certainly boost the hop freshness, I certainly experienced this with Youngs Kits were the hop gave a big boost and the beer was nice, but as soon as the dry hop faded, it fell off a cliff.. Contrary to popular opinions I have had a heavy hopped beer which I have done late flame out and dry hops and as the beer ages and the dry hop probably diminishes what I have left behind is really good and well aged if not better..

 

[AdeDunn]

Sorry to necro this thread (although not really.. lol), but something just occured to me...

I just reviewed the Bad Cat Imperial Red, and Youngs AIPA kits, and it occurred to me that both of these kits the LME/Wort comes in a plastic bag NOT in a metal tin... Neither of these has even a trace of homebrew twang... So my obvious though is, maybe the homebrew twang is coming from the metal tins? I'm sure we've all noticed that beer from a bottle or draught tastes better than beer from a can right? Maybe the same is true when it comes to brew kits?

Have a think about the kits you've done too, how many of the ones with homebrew twang were can kits, and did you find that the ones that came in bags didn't have the twang? Same with extract brewers using tinned LME, I know those who've used DME instead have said there was no twang, and well DME doesn't come in a can...

Maybe something from the metal can is either tainting the wort directly, or adding something that's acting as a precursor to an off flavour that we call homebrew twang? It's the one thing that every single kit brewed is going to have in common, regardless of temperature control, yeast used etc... It'd also explain why I had less twang from my Wilkos Golden ale kit, only 1 can, the rest was DME... Food for thought maybe?

 

[Covrich]

Sorry to necro this thread (although not really.. lol), but something just occured to me...

I just reviewed the Bad Cat Imperial Red, and Youngs AIPA kits, and it occurred to me that both of these kits the LME/Wort comes in a plastic bag NOT in a metal tin... Neither of these has even a trace of homebrew twang... So my obvious though is, maybe the homebrew twang is coming from the metal tins? I'm sure we've all noticed that beer from a bottle or draught tastes better than beer from a can right? Maybe the same is true when it comes to brew kits?

Have a think about the kits you've done too, how many of the ones with homebrew twang were can kits, and did you find that the ones that came in bags didn't have the twang? Same with extract brewers using tinned LME, I know those who've used DME instead have said there was no twang, and well DME doesn't come in a can...

Maybe something from the metal can is either tainting the wort directly, or adding something that's acting as a precursor to an off flavour that we call homebrew twang? It's the one thing that every single kit brewed is going to have in common, regardless of temperature control, yeast used etc... It'd also explain why I had less twang from my Wilkos Golden ale kit, only 1 can, the rest was DME... Food for thought maybe?

My final kit and it was a good one was the Youngs AAA it was very nice what I think really helped this was the introduction of a dry hop.. as the dry hop faded the beer left behind was a little hint of a twang and not great.

Whilst good kits and decent beer no doubt I think the dry hop goes a long way to hide any if any that is twangs that could occur in the extract.

 

[Redron]

I am surprised noone has blamed it on Brexit or Donald Trump yet. They are always the most likely suspects.

Nah, it’s all just ‘fake news’....

 

[AdeDunn]

My final kit and it was a good one was the Youngs AAA it was very nice what I think really helped this was the introduction of a dry hop.. as the dry hop faded the beer left behind was a little hint of a twang and not great.

Whilst good kits and decent beer no doubt I think the dry hop goes a long way to hide any if any that is twangs that could occur in the extract.

I can't rule that out, as I dry hopped my Wilko's Golden ale too, although that still had some detectable twang.

The bad cat the dry hop isn't that strong in mine.

Oh well, I no longer have a horse in this race anyway, no kit twang with AG. :lol: It's not like the manufacturers would pay much attention even if we did discover the cause eh? lol

 

[MyQul]

Sorry to necro this thread (although not really.. lol), but something just occured to me...

I just reviewed the Bad Cat Imperial Red, and Youngs AIPA kits, and it occurred to me that both of these kits the LME/Wort comes in a plastic bag NOT in a metal tin... Neither of these has even a trace of homebrew twang... So my obvious though is, maybe the homebrew twang is coming from the metal tins? I'm sure we've all noticed that beer from a bottle or draught tastes better than beer from a can right? Maybe the same is true when it comes to brew kits?

Have a think about the kits you've done too, how many of the ones with homebrew twang were can kits, and did you find that the ones that came in bags didn't have the twang? Same with extract brewers using tinned LME, I know those who've used DME instead have said there was no twang, and well DME doesn't come in a can...

Maybe something from the metal can is either tainting the wort directly, or adding something that's acting as a precursor to an off flavour that we call homebrew twang? It's the one thing that every single kit brewed is going to have in common, regardless of temperature control, yeast used etc... It'd also explain why I had less twang from my Wilkos Golden ale kit, only 1 can, the rest was DME... Food for thought maybe?

Your theory that it's metal causing HBT always assumes there's no difference between LME and DME. The way to test out whether it's metal causing HBT would be to make two identical kits, one can kits using LME from a can and one kit made with LME from a plastic jerry can, which you can buy from Malt Miller

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=59

 

[AdeDunn]

It doesn't assume anything of the sort, I was comparing liquid kits mainly, not DME particularly. Liquid 2 can kits (twang city) with liquid pouch kits (no twang).

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[MyQul]

It doesn't assume anything of the sort, I was comparing liquid kits mainly, not DME particularly. Liquid 2 can kits (twang city) with liquid pouch kits (no twang).

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My apologies. I misunderstood what you were comparing :hat:

 

[MarkBowie]

I’ve enjoyed the kits I’ve made so far and didn’t notice any twang (both using cans and doubled up kits). Does it condition out? As I have always left my kits 6 months before drinking as they don’t have a dry-hop.

 

[pms67]

I’ve enjoyed the kits I’ve made so far and didn’t notice any twang (both using cans and doubled up kits). Does it condition out? As I have always left my kits 6 months before drinking as they don’t have a dry-hop.

6 MONTHS !!!!!!!!!
You sir,are the the most patient man I’ve ever heard of.
Makes me look at myself differently 😳😳😳😳🤔

 

[MarkBowie]

6 MONTHS !!!!!!!!!
You sir,are the the most patient man I’ve ever heard of.
Makes me look at myself differently 😳😳😳😳🤔

I’ve only really brewed the bigger darker beers and one pale. The pale I made with Mango and it took an awful long time to clear, we sold our house, had to move in with in-laws whilst ours is STILL being built (I won’t get started...) and it was stored at my brothers so I had a haitus from drinking my own beer. Even the pale benefitted from it. I like beer and am really interested in everything to do with yeast so for me if it needs conditioning for a long time then I leave it. I buy Fullers Vintage each year and leave it for 7 years before I try it.

 

[Ciaran12s]

I had a couple of coopers Canadian blond last night after bottling a couple of weeks ago. Absolutely lovely.

One can, plus 500g of dme boiled for 15 minutes with some progress hops(40g I think) It is supposed to be 1kg enhancer but I wanted a session guzzler for the long festive drinking days.

Very nice I have to say. No trace of twang at all. I done the same kit recently as per the instructions and there was a definite twang to it.

I've always found though that adding hops to kits, either as above, dry hopping or hop teas do get rid of the twang and make a really nice beer.

 

[pms67]

I had a couple of coopers Canadian blond last night after bottling a couple of weeks ago. Absolutely lovely.

One can, plus 500g of dme boiled for 15 minutes with some progress hops(40g I think) It is supposed to be 1kg enhancer but I wanted a session guzzler for the long festive drinking days.

Very nice I have to say. No trace of twang at all. I done the same kit recently as per the instructions and there was a definite twang to it.

I've always found though that adding hops to kits, either as above, dry hopping or hop teas do get rid of the twang and make a really nice beer.

I wouldn’t say dry hopping gets rid of the twang,maybe masks it but behind it lurks the taste.
My Cwtch was hoppy but............arrrrrrrgh it was still there.

 

[Ciaran12s]

I wouldn’t say dry hopping gets rid of the twang,maybe masks it but behind it lurks the taste.
My Cwtch was hoppy but............arrrrrrrgh it was still there.

Aye true that, the dry hop masks but I do think the other two methods really clear it up a good bit though.