Kellet (Limestone) Brewery Tour

[Oggys Bar]

Vossy et al...as promised a tour of the above brewery....Lots of pictures..Any constructive criticism accepted....Non constructive criticism also accepted...as long as it's funny

OK Vossy…Here’s the tour, but be warned commissioning of the HERMS has not been 100% successful and I am looking to you and Aleman (and anybody else) for advice.

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1. The brewery is built on a 1.1m X 0.55m wheeled frame. It was built this size to fit an alcove which I was allowed to use on the provisor I didn’t expand to take over the entire basement Given the size I then attempted to get the most practical brew length onto it. I use cornies, so I was looking at multiples of approx 20L. Actually for personal use and a few friends 20l is usually OK. 40L is also useful and I have regularly done both sized brews. I could just about manage a 60L length if the grain bill wasn’t too big (batch sparging) and more easily fly sparging. The underback is under the trolley frame and wort is drained to the underback using a valentine v'v connected to the MT ball v/v. Wort is pumped from the underback using Flojet 1 into the copper. The limiting capacity factor factor is the boiler (70L.)

2. All the vessels are Nordic best stainless :) and consist of the following:
On the top level:-70L HLT. On the bottom level :-38.5L Mash tun, a choice of either a 35L or 70L boiler (35L currently in place) and recently a 6L Heat exchanger for a HERMS system.

3. Water is fed to the HLT via a flexible hose through a (charcoal) water filter.
The HLT is heated via 2 kettle elements (from cheap kettles). 1 or both elements can be PID controlled. I raise to temp with both elements, 1 only pid controlled, then I unplug the non controlled element.

4. Hot liquor is transferred by gravity to the mash tun via underletting through the grain bed. This can be controlled by 2 ball v/vs, one at the HLT outlet and 1 at the MT inlet.

5. Once the mash is underway, the outlet tube from a Flojet pump (No1) is connected to a spray bar which is positioned just above or below the mash. The flojet sucks from the H/E outlet and the H/E inlet is permanently connected to the outlet from the mash tun (controlled by a ball v/v). The flojet flow is controlled by a pressure regulator and flow can be varied from 0.2L min to about 8L min. The flojet is operated by an air compressor.

6. The 6L H/E is heated by a single kettle element and has a copper heat exchanger inside the stainless cooking pot. The H/E is PID controlled, but the temp sensor is placed in the MT presently as I am not sure what type (& size) of sensor I will eventually choose when I finally decide, I will fit the sensor in the H/E outlet.

7. At the end of the mash period the spray bar is removed from the Flojet and replaced with a 10mm copper wand. The flojet is switched on and the wort is transferred directly to the boiler via the wand.

8. The boiler is switched on as soon as the elements are covered and the batch sparge process is continued by closing the MT outlet and reconnecting the flojet outlet to the spraybar. If the mash should stick, then it is possible to open the MT outlet v/v and water will flow into the grain bed (underletting) to open up the bed (but never had to do it) The sparge is continued through the wand until all the wort is transferred to the boiler. It is possible at this stage to transfer water directly from the HLT to the boiler if required by simply closing the MT v/v and opening the HLT v/v.

9. At this stage the airline connection to flojet (No1) is disconnected via a quick connect coupling and Flojet (No2) is connected. This pump is connected to the outlet of a CFC. The CFC inlet is connected to the boiler outlet ball v/v. The copper wand is connected to the outlet from the cfc and directed straight into the F/V from a great height for max aereation. It is possible at this stage to recirculate the wort through the CFC and back into the boiler if required.

And That’s my brewing kit. See Photos (during a brew) for more detail.

2 brews actually...A Boddingtons clone and a Hen Harrier clone.

Still trying the water treatment..appears to be imroving my beer.

First use of the HERMS. Temperature set and heating up the HLT.

The water/wort manifold. Water from HLT to MT and wort from MT to HERMS heat exchanger.

The boiler.

The HLT.

Flojet 1 connected to HE and recircing wort through HE and MT.

The air regulator used for regulating the wort flow through the Flojet.

The trusty compressor used for powering the Flojets.

The whole kit on its trolley.

The HERMS heat exchanger at the back of the trolley (6L Nordic stock-pot insulated)

The copper coil and T**co kettle element inside the HE.

A rear-end view :shock:

The HLT nearly up to temperature.

The thing about PID control is that you can leave the brewery to its own devices while you nip upstairs to get some brownie points by knocking up a rhubarb crumble and some Yorkshire puds, safe in the knowledge the HLT water wont be boiling when you get back.. :grin:

HLT temp has got there.

And Mash temp has got there.

Recirc pipe in the MT connected to the Flojet(1) via the HE.

Slight undershoot in MT temp.

Now an overshoot.

Actual temp as measured with an accurate lab thermometer is actually 2c under PID display (Pid had been calibrated in ice.

Spraybar removed and wort transfer wand in place....Magic

The wort as it came out of the wand..very clear, pictures don't do it justice.

Wort being pumped into copper.

Grain for 2nd mash (Hen Harrier) in MT.

This time incredible temperature overshoot.

Boddingtons clone in the FV.

Hen Harrier under boil.

 

[BrewStew]

That's beer porn at it's best :thumb:

how do your ferments handle in the thermoxes? i've been thinking about getting an 80L thermobox as a fermenter but am concerned about temps getting too high and creating off flavours or worse, killing the yeast

 

[Vossy1]

Gr8 pics and description OB :clap:

The difference in mash temp probe v liquid thermometer :hmm:

1st, have you personally checked the lab thermometer...gotta ask
What type of probe are you using is it a k type or a PT 100?
K types need calibrating at multiple temperatures to gauge accuracy, whereas PT100's only need the icebath calibration as they work on a linear basis (so I'm told).

The mash can throw varying temps at first, I was surprised how these varied, in fact I dumped a mash prematurely, recently, due to acting too quickly. Your mash needs to settle/be recirced for a period, before an accurate temp can be gauged, usually about 10 mins does it for me.

Have you auto tuned the PID when trialing the system? A 6 deg overshoot is quite large.

IMPORTANT BIT below

The main reason for having the probe at the exit/or as near as possible to it, from the HE is to prevent temperature fluctuations. If the probe is in the mash it will respond very slowly to the output from the HE and by the time it does respond it will be TOO late, especially with an insulated HE vessel.

If the output from the HE is 66 deg c, sooner or later the mash will be 66 deg c.
You may get a temperature loss from the HE output to the tun, and from the tun to the environment, but this can be offset using the PSB.

 

[Oggys Bar]

That's beer porn at it's best :thumb:

how do your ferments handle in the thermoxes? i've been thinking about getting an 80L thermobox as a fermenter but am concerned about temps getting too high and creating off flavours or worse, killing the yeast

I think the above will answer your question

My 25L thermo-box isn't too much of a problem re temperature but I am able to cool it using my Maxi 110. I don't usually bother, it sits in a room of fairly constant 19C and rarely exceeds 22C at maximum fermentation activity.

My 50L Thermo-box on the other hand....As can be seen above reaches ridiculously high temperatures and normally I use my Maxi 110 and H/E as a matter of course..I was being lazy in the Black Sheep brew above....I managed to recover it a little bit by leaving it 14 days in the FV..but It does have an ever so slight diacetyl taste.....Strangely though and I made this comment last night..a few non-beer connoisseurs appear to prefer it to some of my other brews :shock:

In short for an 80L TB..you will definitely need some form of cooling. Even with the S/S lid replaced with a perspex one mine still overheats if left to its own devices.

 

[BrewStew]

thanks for clearing that up :thumb:

 

[Oggys Bar]

Gr8 pics and description OB :clap:

The difference in mash temp probe v liquid thermometer :hmm:

1st, have you personally checked the lab thermometer...gotta ask

Well er actually NO but it is a Mercury thermometer with 2mm per degreeC scale, so compared to a K-series thermocouple I assume :nono: it is more accurate.

What type of probe are you using is it a k type or a PT 100?
K types need calibrating at multiple temperatures to gauge accuracy, whereas PT100's only need the icebath calibration as they work on a linear basis (so I'm told).

It's a K type and I only calibrated it at 0C. Do you use a PT100? If so can you recommend a supplier?

The mash can throw varying temps at first, I was surprised how these varied, in fact I dumped a mash prematurely, recently, due to acting too quickly. Your mash needs to settle/be recirced for a period, before an accurate temp can be gauged, usually about 10 mins does it for me.

I had recirced for several minutes...what surprised me was that the PID had been quite stable with just water and also with the first mash...But with the second mash it just overshot & undershot wildly.

Have you auto tuned the PID when trialing the system? A 6 deg overshoot is quite large.

This is probably where I have B0lloxed up....I thought the PID "learnt" the response required and gradually became more accurate (less variance) In subsequent runs with mine with spent mash...it stills shows big (4C) over and undershoots.

Would you mind running over the auto tuning process (It will probably benefit others on here as well) I purchased my PIDS from China and the instructions are not that great :?

IMPORTANT BIT below

The main reason for having the probe at the exit/or as near as possible to it, from the HE is to prevent temperature fluctuations. If the probe is in the mash it will respond very slowly to the output from the HE and by the time it does respond it will be TOO late, especially with an insulated HE vessel.

If the output from the HE is 66 deg c, sooner or later the mash will be 66 deg c.
You may get a temperature loss from the HE output to the tun, and from the tun to the environment, but this can be offset using the PSB.

I did intend on eventually putting the sensor at the HE outlet as you recommend but was reluctant to do so until I decided what probe type I was going to use. The current K type ones I have are rather cheap and may well be the source of my problems.

I would welcome any advice on probe types and then I will give it another go.

The HERMS system looks very promising.

 

[A T]

What a beautiful set up :clap: :clap:

 

[Vossy1]

It's a K type and I only calibrated it at 0C. Do you use a PT100? If so can you recommend a supplier?

Yep, I use a PT100 as do a lot of HERMS/RIMS users I know, and a few of us have got our probes from Watch Hill...here Watch Hill

There's about £3 difference between a class A and a class B probe....well worth paying the extra for the class A.
To work out the errors in your system you have to add the inaccuracies of the PID to those your probes, so the more accurate your probe the better the control you have in your system

This is probably where I have B0lloxed up....I thought the PID "learnt" the response required and gradually became more accurate (less variance)

It does. When you start recircing press the > button for 4 seconds. The AT light will start flashing and it will stop when the PID has learnt the system responses. It will under and over shoot until it holds a steady temperature and it should then be quite accurate.

 

[MEB]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Oggys Bar]

Yep, I use a PT100 as do a lot of HERMS/RIMS users I know, and a few of us have got our probes from Watch Hill...here Watch Hill

Just to put the record straight..I bought a couple of PT100s from Watch Hill and they are much more stable than the K types.

I have fitted the H/E Thermocouple into the wort outlet and the system responds perfectly. I have done 2 brews 25litres Copper Dragon Golden PIppin and 45 litres Black sheep and the wort temperature remained at 66C +- 0.5C. The wort was beautifully clear and now that I have perfected a method of reducing trub in my fermenter (I pump from Copper through CFC to empty HLT and leave overnight. The following morning ALL the trub has settled below the HLT outlet and I pump it (in order to aerate it) into the fermenter...) :party: I am waiting to see how this turns out....Could be I do not have enough trub in my fermenter :hmm:

Also I.ve not done any chemical tratment for these last 2 brews as I want to try and retrieve my "house taste" before I start trating again..if necessary....Sometimes if it Aint broke ...you shouldn't try and fix it :hmm:

 

[Wez]

I just took a good look through those pictures again.

I must make a point of looking at them at least once a week - superb set up :thumb:

 

[Oggys Bar]

I just took a good look through those pictures again.

I must make a point of looking at them at least once a week - superb set up :thumb:

Thanks Wez, I have got to say I am very pleased with the way it has developed, it has proved to be very flexible and although it would be nice to say I planned it this way....actually I didn't, it just seems to have pumps, vessels, valves etc in the right places when I next come up with an idea (like pumping to/from the HLT)

Oh and I wasn't trying to be a clever **** by stating it maintained 60c+-0.5c. Obviously I know many of us can easily achieve this with a plastic bucket and an old quilt. But for my HERMS after its initial trial..it was ...SUCCESS :thumb:

 

[MartialAnt]

Cant beat the real tour though. Plus you get to sample the goods afterwards. Pity i was nominated driver on that day.

 

[highwayman]

OB..Brilliant Mate...Well Impressed :clap: