Kegging AG Stout - no Nitrogen?

[Ashley]

When i bought my kegs and gear for my kegerator, the store gave me a Stout tap head.

I've never brewed a stout before but as I'm in Ireland for work I'm sat here drinking Murphy's (because its nicer than Guiness) and thinking I'd like to brew a stout for those cold January and February nights.

I know that I need a CO2/Nitrogen mix but what would happen if I just low carbed it on a low psi and screwed on the stout tap without the nitrogen and just using my CO2 bottle?

Would the head disappear or would it remain like it does in the pub?

 

[prog99]

I've always used co2, don't see any reason to use nitrogen.

 

[Ashley]

I've always used co2, don't see any reason to use nitrogen.

Fantastic to hear!!! Do you get the thick, creamy head still?

 

[prog99]

Not like guinness etc but I've been happy with the results then I tend to make stronger varieties anyway.

 

[Ashley]

Do you use a stout tap as well?

 

[prog99]

My answer to that is - what’s a stout tap?

 

[peebee]

I'm not sure a "stout tap" actually works (at more than a dribble) unless you use ball-crunching pressure. But my understanding is you can remove the offending "restrictor plate" and use it like a normal tap? Someone will correct that if I'm wrong.

And stout pours fine without nitrogen. Guinness developed their nitrogen mucking about simply to get what the customer wanted (or had got used to) for cheaper and more consistently in untrained hands. They did a good job with the marketing 'cos it's got everyone believing that nitrogen is necessary: Complete boll%!*?%.

Guinness developed the nitrogen caper back in the 50s. At that time you could get Guinness, complete with creamy head, out of a hand-pump! Not that I got a chance to sample it (but I believe it was still available in the 70s?). I'd be impressed with anyone trying to emulate that: My own attempts at the old "high cask, low cask" system wasn't a success, although I expect to get volumes of thick creamy head just from a hand-pump (serving <3-5PSI) but can only maintain it for a couple of weeks, after which the head is only about 1/2" thick.

 

[Ashley]

I'm not sure a "stout tap" actually works (at more than a dribble) unless you use ball-crunching pressure. But my understanding is you can remove the offending "restrictor plate" and use it like a normal tap? Someone will correct that if I'm wrong.

And stout pours fine without nitrogen. Guinness developed their nitrogen mucking about simply to get what the customer wanted (or had got used to) for cheaper and more consistently in untrained hands. They did a good job with the marketing 'cos it's got everyone believing that nitrogen is necessary: Complete boll%!*?%.

Guinness developed the nitrogen caper back in the 50s. At that time you could get Guinness, complete with creamy head, out of a hand-pump! Not that I got a chance to sample it (but I believe it was still available in the 70s?). I'd be impressed with anyone trying to emulate that: My own attempts at the old "high cask, low cask" system wasn't a success, although I expect to get volumes of thick creamy head just from a hand-pump (serving <3-5PSI) but can only maintain it for a couple of weeks, after which the head is only about 1/2" thick.

Cracking answer, thank you

 

[Alside101]

Buy Guinness in a can then the extra stout in bottle. Compare the 2 and there is the difference. Btw i have a stout on at the min with just co2 and its fine but you don't get the big cascading head it just pours like normal beer

 

[BeerCat]

I do like my stout tap. I think the secret is to slightly overcarb the beer as its flattens a bit as its poured if that makes sense. Much better head retention as well if you do not boil the wort.

Are people really saying nitrogen is not worth the effort? Had a look last night and its nearly 4x more a tank than i am paying now. I would like to try it though as i have really got.

 

[peebee]

… Are people really saying nitrogen is not worth the effort? …

Who's saying that? … Anyone?

I don't think so, but if we rearrange your words just a little:

NOT using nitrogen is certainly worth the effort!

We're homebrewers! We've gone to the effort of making the stuff. Surely we can go to the little extra effort of serving the stuff?

If not, then by all means use the tricks Guinness developed to ensure even the most inexperienced clot can pump out a uniform (not necessarily the best) glass full.

Take your pick. Like I've already said; you've proved yourself capable of brewing stout. I've every faith in you that you can serve stout well too (without nitrogen). thumb

 

[BeerCat]

This is what mine pours like. Thinking i should be able to improve head retention by adjusting the mash ph. Have had them much creamier than this in the past but perhaps i am being too picky as this goes down far to easily. i will swap the tap over tomorrow and see what the difference is.

 

[samale]

This is what mine pours like. Thinking i should be able to improve head retention by adjusting the mash ph. Have had them much creamier than this in the past but perhaps i am being too picky as this goes down far to easily. i will swap the tap over tomorrow and see what the difference is.

View attachment 23443
View attachment 23444

I have started trying no boil or raw ale. First one was an American wheat which to be honest wasn't great the second which I am drinking now is an English red X ale . It's miles better the head retention is brilliant it has lacing the full way down the glass.

 

[samale]

 

[peebee]

… View attachment 23443 …

This will be tricky - I'm going to make recommendations based on assumptions (some from what I think you've said), which might be wrong?

So the assumptions I'm making are this is a young beer (not long in the keg), 100% CO2 (possibly force-carbonated?), not using the stout tap at moment? It looks very over-carbonated: Big bubbles (young). Much like bottled stout (no "widget").

One of the advantages of mixed gas is it makes it much harder to over-carbonate. Physics dictates each gas acts as if its on its own in proportion to the amount of gas in the mix - "partial pressure". So if using 25/75 mixed gas at bone crunching 28PSI, its the same as using pure CO2 at the more reasonable 7PSI (25% of 28PSI). Nitrogen plays no other part, but given time and low temperature will perhaps dissolve a bit.

But nitrogen does play a part at high pressures, it forces the beer through the "restrictor plate" in the "stout tap". The tiny perforations cause the CO2 to "breakout" into a fine beaded head. Without the high pressure beer will probably only dribble through the plate. Nitrogen makes an even better result, if you can get the nitrogen in the beer in the first place.

Look at this sliver from a stout of mine:

No nitrogen but CO2 <5PSI. A bit of a cheat 'cos the stout is strong (about 7% ABV) and had 4 months to develop the head. I.E. More foam creating ingredients and loads of time to develop a fine "bead" (bubble size). Also shows you don't need nitrogen to create a "cascade" effect.

No answer but hopefully enough information to develop your own. Low carbonation and time is key, but getting a stout tap to work at low pressure is well outside my experience (apart from knowing you can remove the restrictor plate).

 

[BeerCat]

Thanks @peebee plenty to think about. It was a fresh beer kegged on Thursday and left at 20psi until Sunday. Only a third full though. Beer is very low carb, just above flat which i think is correct for style? I used the stout tap but the flow was very slow.
So you are saying more conditioning will result in smaller bubbles promoting a creamier head and lacing. It makes sense as i have had them look like an milk shake before with foam still in the glass the next day. I only have one regulator and its set for lagers so its guess work trying to under carb these. I have the stout faucet on a flow control tap which honestly i don't like so i will have to have a play around and see if i can improve the pour.

 

[peebee]

Yes, slow conditioning does produce a "tighter" bead head. It can be short circuited a bit using nitrogen, but I think it requires more than just connecting up the gas and crossing fingers. It certainly requires low temperatures and high pressures.

Lagers require a different approach and really do have high volumes of carbonation. Stouts don't respond well to high volumes of CO2, which is why Guinness spent so much time mucking about with nitrogen mixes (I don't think you can get pure CO2 kegged Guinness any more, like 40-50 years ago, which I don't think anyone cast a tear over; "keggy-ade" as Mr Wheeler would have put it).