Keg woes: TCP taste

[kelper]

Sorry, saw your post before but it confused me: I didn't use any Chrlorine, I was talking about Chlorine in the tap water.

So tell us how you clean and sterilise your PB. Maybe you are making a simple error.

 

[Sandimas]

So tell us how you clean and sterilise your PB. Maybe you are making a simple error.

I usually use VWP, however this time I gave it a real good soak in a weak bleach solution, then rinsed several times and let it soak in a keg full of tapwater to ensure all the bleach was gone. I've been doing a similar thing with my bottles the last 6 months, every few batches, as VWP wasn't removing internal tarnishing fully. But this TCP thing was happening way before I started using bleach, bleach was a last resort.

The latest batch of beer was half-kegged and half-bottled on 14th Dec. In the keg, I used external CO2 rather than wait for it to carb up, as it was my Xmas beer, It's been fine until 27th Dec I then started detecting the TCP taste again, and on the 28th it was much more noticeable.

 

[kelper]

VWP is chlorine! Perhaps you used too much. Thin bleach need to be diluted to about 25ppm. Why not use a cleaner and steriliser not chlorine based. If your PB is hiding chlorine in cracks and crevices you might need to use an "antidote" first. Campden tablets. Other options include sodium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite, or sodium bisulfite. I know you soaked for a long time.

The filter on your tap is also a possible source of bacteria since it removes the tiny amount of chlorine that keeps the water free of pathogens.

I would give the PB a soak with one of the above solutions and then avoid chlorine altogether (ignoring the tiny amount in tapwater.

 

[Sandimas]

Bit of an update: tried the first bottle from this batch this evening and it's fine, so it's definitely the keg not the beer. However, the Mrs can't seem to detect it so she's drinking the keg beer until it's gone.

Also having a beer from my stainless-steel minikeg, which is again fine, ruling out the common equipment such as syphon tubes. It's got to be something in the keg.

The last time I used VWP to clean was a long time ago, maybe 18 months ago: it was rinsed, dried and left, until I decided to give it one last go with the bleach. Would the Chrlorine have hung around in there after all this time?

 

[JockyBrewer]

No, more likely the chlorine would have come from the bleach at that point.

When you bleached did you remove and split the taps apart to check they’re clean?

 

[Sandimas]

When you bleached did you remove and split the taps apart to check they’re clean?

Yes, split it and gave it a real good clean and soak in the bleach solution.

I'm still struggling to see what I could do differently.

 

[buddsy]

Hi just a thought could your problem be anything to do with your CO2 supply?

Ive just bought myself a CO2 cylinder and when looking there seems to be differences between dirty old welding CO2 gas bottles and food grade CO2 bottles.

I sold a Mig welder with a big CO2 bottle a few years ago and was kicking myself until I thought I wouldn't really want to drink anything that used gas out of that dirty old cylinder!

Good luck getting to the bottom of this.

buddsy

 

[JockyBrewer]

Yes, split it and gave it a real good clean and soak in the bleach solution.

I'm still struggling to see what I could do differently.

I think you’ve done everything I’d suggest other than trying a soak in iodophor, although if bleach didn’t work then I’m not sure that would either.

Unless there’s a bit of equipment you’re using to fill the kegs not used for anything else, I can only assume that you’ve had an infected batch at some point that is now being harboured in nooks and crannies of your kegs.

The other thing would be to clean the rotokeg then get your hand in there and feel for any scratches or roughness.

Then again you might want to just set aside the infected kegs for now and get something else to use.

 

[Sandimas]

Unless there’s a bit of equipment you’re using to fill the kegs not used for anything else, I can only assume that you’ve had an infected batch at some point that is now being harboured in nooks and crannies of your kegs.

No,I use the same tubing and syphon stick for bottles and kegs, and the bottles are fine.

I'm going to leave the remaining beer in the keg to see if it develops a visible infection, that way at least I have some certainty. I'll post a pic on here if I get anything. I'm minded to think it is some sort of infection (and yes I have had them in the past), as it's getting worse day by day. If it was chlorine leaching from the barrel, surely it would reach a point and then just stop getting worse?

 

[JockyBrewer]

I think it’s an infection too. The chlorine would come from the barrel pretty quickly if it was that.

 

[strange-steve]

Going by all the information on the thread it certainly sounds like a wild yeast contamination, so a deep clean is the solution. I have used the following method to deep clean my FVs after I had a persistent brett contamination between batches and it sorted the problem. I used this same method after I had a brewing hiatus a while ago and returned to discover the inside of my FV was very mouldy, the subsequent beer turned out fine.

Step one: pour a few litres of cold water into the barrel and add thin bleach at a dose of 110ml/L, put the cap on and give it a good shake. Leave for about 15 mins, shaking several times throughout.

Step two: dump the bleach solution, rinse several times with water, crush a couple of Campden tablets, add to the barrel along with 5L of cold water and give it a good shake. Leave for an hour shaking periodically.

Step three: dump the Campden solution, rinse a few times, including once with boiling water, then pour in a litre or so of Starsan and give it a good shake. Leave the Starsan in it until you plan to use it.

This is actually a 4 stage sanitation regime, bleach, sulphur dioxide, heat, acid, and there's very little that will survive this. Also, the Campden solution will mop up any excess chlorine left from the bleach. The tap on the barrel makes it a little more tricky, so I would remove it and give it a separate soak in bleach -> Campden -> Starsan.

 

[foxbat]

I'd paint it terracotta and plant a tree in it as a lasting reminder never to buy plastic kegs again.

 

[Drunkula]

I'd paint it terracotta and plant a tree in it as a lasting reminder never to buy plastic kegs again.

This is the way.

 

[foxy]

Something which we all may come across, happened to me recently, it was something I did which at the time I knew that I shouldn't have done it. Bottled, could smell band aid, should have followed my first train of thought and abandon. Didn't, and regret it, tried to recall what it was I did to set alarm bells ringing. Ended up tipping the lot and cleaning the bottles, I really do think it was brettanomyce.
Hope this helps.
https://londonamateurbrewers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf

So, I now discover it wasn't something I did, it was an infection in the fermenter.
While I have brewed quite a few beers since my last catastrophe, I do have a few fermenters, so never had a problem until today. I have been monitoring my last brew an AIPA brewed Christmas eve, or there abouts. Noticed the yeast wasn't compacting as it should be this far into the fermentation, still bubbling away took a reading, 1,008, far to low. Tasted the sample, medicinal, band aid, don't know what TCP is like, but this is definitely an infection. I suspect the tap as it is a bugger to take out and clean, I am also in the process of changing my Snubbies to the Apollo so not worth the effort of cleaning or changing over the tap.

Into the recycle bin it goes. Good riddance.

 

[Dads_Ale]

So, I now discover it wasn't something I did, it was an infection in the fermenter.
While I have brewed quite a few beers since my last catastrophe, I do have a few fermenters, so never had a problem until today. I have been monitoring my last brew an AIPA brewed Christmas eve, or there abouts. Noticed the yeast wasn't compacting as it should be this far into the fermentation, still bubbling away took a reading, 1,008, far to low. Tasted the sample, medicinal, band aid, don't know what TCP is like, but this is definitely an infection. I suspect the tap as it is a bugger to take out and clean, I am also in the process of changing my Snubbies to the Apollo so not worth the effort of cleaning or changing over the tap.
View attachment 38744
Into the recycle bin it goes. Good riddance.
View attachment 38745

That is bad luck

I would suspect the tap as well. You do need to keep on top of dismantling and cleaning them, a friend of mine had a couple of infections from his tap, Some beer can get past the seals over time and without dismantling it can't be cleaned out. I find that once apart a thin smear of food grade silicone grease on the plastic lips stop future ingress.

 

[foxy]

That is bad luck

I would suspect the tap as well. You do need to keep on top of dismantling and cleaning them, a friend of mine had a couple of infections from his tap, Some beer can get past the seals over time and without dismantling it can't be cleaned out. I find that once apart a thin smear of food grade silicone grease on the plastic lips stop future ingress.

View attachment 38748

I agree, the taps are cheap about $2.00 AUD but with the Snub nose it really is a pain in the arse to take them out. I wouldn't bother cleaning them, just replace them. The Apollo I can get my hand inside so will just replace them periodically.

 

[Sandimas]

Mid-Feb update: after leaving the pressurised keg with a small amount of beer in it for the last 6 weeks I finally opened it today, hoping to see some sort of mega-infection. A bit underwhelmed to be honest, looks like a few spores on top but not really sure, what do you think?

Massive medicinal / TCP smell upon opening. The bottles from the same batch have conditioned beautifully with no hint of TCP.

 

[phildo79]

Ditch it. Are they really worth the aggro? I've never owned one and never will. Heard too many negative things about them. And aren't they about the same price as a used corny keg? Seems like an no-brainer to switch to cornies.

 

[Bill_g]

Ditch it. Are they really worth the aggro? I've never owned one and never will. Heard too many negative things about them. And aren't they about the same price as a used corny keg? Seems like an no-brainer to switch to cornies.

I'd second that. In fact I don't trust plastic at all for fermentation & storage, so wherever possible use stainless steel.

 

[Sandimas]

Thanks guys - I agree too. I've had this for 2 years in 3 different plastic barrels, no matter what I throw at it I can't seem to get rid of it. I started with stainless-steel kegs just before Xmas and the beer in there is fine, you have confirmed the way forward.