JonGaarden: The Saga

[_jon_]

Hey Guys,

As I may have mentioned in another thread, 2018 is a witbeer year for me. I am determined to conquer a hoegaarden style clone.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/588511/jongaarden

I have knocked together this recipe as a starter for 10, but I'm interesting in discussing the base malt. I've put UK 2 Row, as I wasn't sure what the best grain to use would be.

I have quantities of:

Ireks Pilsner
Clear Choice Pale
Clear Choice Extra Pale

As I'm looking for 3kg of base pale malt, which would you guys use?

I'm keen to get this going tomorrow, so would be grateful of any advice :)

Thanks
Jon

 

[BeerCat]

Personally i would use the ireks to get the right colour. Good luck. I need to return to wheat beers as my last attempts have been pretty lame.
If you want a cloudy beer clear choice is probably not the best although not used it. Heard good things though and i like crisp malts.

 

[_jon_]

Personally i would use the ireks to get the right colour. Good luck. I need to return to wheat beers as my last attempts have been pretty lame.
If you want a cloudy beer clear choice is probably not the best although not used it. Heard good things though and i like crisp malts.

Interesting. Maybe 50% Ireks and 50% Clear Choice Pale?

 

[Ajhutch]

I’d go for the highest diastatic power possible, as you’ve rightly got a lot of unmalted wheat. What mash schedule are you planning to do? The only witbier I ever did had lousy efficiency. I prefer to drink German style wheat beers which use malted wheat and I had success with a single infusion mash on that, but if I had my witbier brewday over again I would definitely look at lower temperature step. Mangrove Jack does (or at least used to do) a Witbier yeast as well, which does give the typically slight tartness. I got a fairly German character from WB06.

 

[_jon_]

I remember reading elsewhere that witbeer's generally get lower efficiency. Maybe I should reduce the efficiency of the recipe to account for this?

Interesting that you mention that WB-06 is potentially unsuitable. I do have a WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity Yeast, which I was saving for a Leffe style belgian strong. Would that be more suitable? Or I could put brew day back to next week and order the mangrove jack yeast.

 

[Sheepish]

Have a look at this guys vids, he's got a couple on his hoegarden clone https://youtu.be/JZNMUebjkvk.

And fwiw, the Hefe I've almost finished drinking was 40% Ireks Pilsner and 60% Ireks Bavarian wheat malt, with mangrove jacks m20 yeast and it turned out great.

 

[_jon_]

Have a look at this guys vids, he's got a couple on his hoegarden clone https://youtu.be/JZNMUebjkvk.

And fwiw, the Hefe I've almost finished drinking was 40% Ireks Pilsner and 60% Ireks Bavarian wheat malt, with mangrove jacks m20 yeast and it turned out great.

Love this guy, his videos really kick started my brewing. It's his recipe I've followed here as best I can. I think I've seen that video about 10 times :)

Any benefit to adding more ireks than clear choice? Is it just to get the correct colour?

 

[Ajhutch]

I think WB06 produces quite different profiles at different temperatures. I definitely read some threads on this sort of thing in the past. I’m not saying it’s definitely unsuitable per se, but there may be a better yeast out there. But I think you’re on a bit of a journey with this one, so maybe brew with that and next time try a different yeast!

 

[_jon_]

I think WB06 produces quite different profiles at different temperatures. I definitely read some threads on this sort of thing in the past. I’m not saying it’s definitely unsuitable per se, but there may be a better yeast out there. But I think you’re on a bit of a journey with this one, so maybe brew with that and next time try a different yeast!

You've hit the nail on the head. This is a journey, to make the perfect (for me) WitBeer :)

Trying different things is what it's all about.

 

[Sheepish]

Any benefit to adding more ireks than clear choice? Is it just to get the correct colour?

I think as has already been mentioned, probably best to use whichever has the greatest diastatic power to convert your recipes unmalted wheat ...I believe US two row, used by Larry, is generally much higher than either of the grains you've mentioned.

...or a longer mash ...or use malted wheat???

 

[_jon_]

This may sound like a daft question, but how do I find out the diastatic power of these malts? Google is not sure, and they're not listed on BF.

 

[Ajhutch]

Not a daft question, they aren't on the spec sheets on the maltsters websites. This is very high level but generally for a given maltster, the pilsner will have a higher DP than pale ale, but you can't really rely on that as you are looking at different maltsters here. I would recommend going for the pilsner malt and be patient. Take gravity samples through the mash time and if it isn't where you want it give it longer. If it doesn't change in 15 minutes it's probably as far as it'll go.


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[_jon_]

Well, thanks to Intel and the announcement of Spectre and Meltdown, I won't be going anywhere near any brewing equipment today! Which is probably a blessing in disguise because I clearly need to do a lot more research if I want this attempt (step one in the saga), to be a remote success!

Do you think it would be better to add some Marris Otter to my base malt mix? To raise the DP? Just to be on the safe side? Or would MO add too much unwanted flavour?

 

[BeerCat]

Sorry i didn't read your recipe properly and missed the flaked oats. I am only using unmalted wheat as it is meant to add a permanent haziness. Many of my wheat beers end up clear so going to try 10% next time, 50% malted wheat and 40% pilsner. Also read overpitching can strip flavours. I have certainly had some extreme fermentations using dried yeast. Blown the lid off. Next time i will just use the smak pack with no starter.

 

[_jon_]

Sorry i didn't read your recipe properly and missed the flaked oats. I am only using unmalted wheat as it is meant to add a permanent haziness. Many of my wheat beers end up clear so going to try 10% next time, 50% malted wheat and 40% pilsner. Also read overpitching can strip flavours. I have certainly had some extreme fermentations using dried yeast. Blown the lid off. Next time i will just use the smak pack with no starter.

Interesting concept of using a smak pack and no starter. I haven't heard much about over pitching being an issue to wit beers. It seems yeast in general seems to be an issue with wit beers.

 

[Sheepish]

This may sound like a daft question, but how do I find out the diastatic power of these malts? Google is not sure, and they're not listed on BF.

Here's the one for Crisp malts that does give the DP http://www.crispmalt.co/uploads/product-range.pdf

...There is an Ireks one somewhere but it doesn't list the DP of their malts.

 

[_jon_]

Thanks for the link, but as a newbie I'm not too sure how to read it.

I guess I don't really know what Diast...... power is! I can do some research, but is there an easy way of reading the table on the clear choice pale page?

 

[Ajhutch]

At a headline level, diastatic power is a measure of the ability of enzymes in Grain A to swim around the mash and convert starches in other kernels of Grain A as well as Grains B, C, D etc into sugar.

It is measured in various scales but the one I know is degrees Lintner. You do a weighted average of the DP of all your grains and you are looking for this to be above a certain threshold. In your case, the Extra pale is 55 degrees Lintner and it is 50% of your grain bill. The rest of your grain bill will have no DP at all, so your weighted average is simply 55*50% = 27.5

I've seen various thresholds from various sources, but I think 30 is probably as low as I've seen recommended.

This is why I would recommend a longer mash, to give an allowance that conversion will take longer, and also to include a decrease in efficiency below what you normally get when working out your recipe, to allow for the possibility some conversion never occurs.


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[Ajhutch]

Just as a follow up, we are quite deep into brewing science here. Plenty of people will brew successfully without worrying about this stuff in detail. As I said previously on this thread, if you are on a journey with this beer I would press on with your plan. Don't expect to make it perfectly first time. Brew it, figure out what went well and what didn't, then change something next time. So you might brew the planned recipe and if efficiency is too low for you then next time you adjust the percentage of base malt.


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[BeerCat]

brewers friend shows the diastic power underneath the fermentables.