Is HERMs worth the effort ?

[Springer]

I think the point of contention here is that if you mash in a HERMS or RIMS system using the full liquor volume throughout the mash then some would say that you do not need to sparge since the converted sugars will already be suspended in the wort. You simply need to remove the grain and let it drain.

The plot thickens :?
I have never heard it said that whatever fancy system you go for use the full liqour volume throughout the mash. :hmm: :?
I have always worked on grain times two and a half, plus volume under false bottom.
Is this a dimension I have missed. :?
For a 90 litre brew, with my thinking, I won't have enough mash time to to pump it round once. :shock: let alone get to the golden temp or do a stepped mash :?
I do see some logic, a bit radical in thinking as I know it of not needing to sparge. :hmm:
I'm still listening
S
P.S. Where's Aleman.......... :geek:

 

[Aleman]

Do you not think this has more to do with your sparge?

With RIMS the mash is constantly being sparged for around 90 mins so not much need to sparge after mashing although I do sparge with a couple of litres at 78°

Actually No, If you are using the 'normal' liquor to grist ratio of 2.5 to 3.0 L/kg, then you are simply recirculating a concentrated sugar solution (wort) round the mash . . . and it will have a gravity of around 1.075 . . . it is important that you sparge the mash in order to extract sugars remaining in the grain. if you do not then you are simply 'No Sparge' Brewing which is a great way to make malty beers if very wasteful of grain.

If you are using the full volume then you are in effect BIAB brewing, although you will have a much clearer wort after run off than typical BIAB brewing. . . . Still there will be a drop in efficiency compared to 'sparged brewing'

Sparging typically refers to rinsing the drained mash with hot water (not wort), as this percolates through the mash bed it picks up sugars trapped in the grain.

 

[Vossy1]

Actually No, If you are using the 'normal' liquor to grist ratio of 2.5 to 3.0 L/kg, then you are simply recirculating a concentrated sugar solution (wort) round the mash . . . and it will have a gravity of around 1.075

So is that the relative saturation point then A, given the time temps other variables we use :hmm: nice to hear my theorising isn't always out of the ball park :lol:
S, look what you've started :lol:

 

[IPA]

As I have always understood it sparging is brewspeak for freeing up residual sugar from the mash by gently rinsing with warm water until you have extracted it or you have reached your intended brewlength. Now with a Braumeister, or RIMS ( recirculating mashing system) you start with slightly more liquor than your intended brewlength and the whole volume is pumped throught the mash at different temps/times to maximise the extraction of desirable sugars etc. So at the end of the mash practically all of the sugars are in suspension in the liquor having been rinsed from the mash during this process. As I see it rinsing and sparging mean exactly the same thing. All that is necessary then is to drain the mash by lifting it above the liquor but as I said I normally sparge with a couple of litres at this stage. To see the system in action watch the video at http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/The- ... anguage=de and click on the union flag to get the English version ( unless you speak German ) and then click on the Braumeister video symbol. It really does achieve over 80% efficiency.

 

[Springer]

Brilliant input, thanks all, but I am even more confused than at the start of the thread, yes V look what I started :lol:
IPAs kit looks interesting, :hmm: I have a spare 100 litre stainless sitting outside :) I am sure with a bit of spannering, would need input from "neck up mate", (I'm neck down) but :hmm: .......................no, already eating one elepant, not enough time for another. :lol:
Interesting input from IPA............
I'm off to do some more thinking, will watch more of the videos tonight, but nice idea.
So where are we now with HERMs against "proper" brewing :? or RIMs or now fancy BIAB. :lol:
S

 

[evanvine]

Think I'll stick with my HERMS!
That 20ltr Braumeister, without chiller, appears to cost £1000 :shock: :shock:

 

[Aleman]

HERMS and RIMS are one and the same thing. One uses indirect heating of the wort (HERMS) and the other uses Direct Heating (RIMS). While you do use a slightly looser mash (3.0 to 3.5L/Kg) than you would for a typical infusion mash (2.5-3.0 L/Kg), it is in no way anywhere near full volume brewing that you would associate with BIAB or the RevRIMS approach of the Speidel Braumeister.

Sparging is rinsing the grain with fresh clean hot water either by the relatively modern approach of Fly Sparging or the much older approach of Remashing (batch sparging). In no way does it resemble recirculation of the wort in the HERMS/RIMS/RevRIMS systems.

 

[IPA]

Quote: Sparging is rinsing the grain with fresh clean hot water either by the relatively modern approach of Fly Sparging or the much older approach of Remashing (batch sparging). In no way does it resemble recirculation of the wort in the HERMS/RIMS/RevRIMS systems

Seems to me that they are doing the same thing ie passing a given volume of heated water through a given weight of malt albeit at different times and to get back to my original question I bet you can't beat the 82% extraction efficiency of a Braumeister

 

[Vossy1]

I bet you can't beat the 82% extraction efficiency of a Braumeister

Oh yes we can see this topic. Fly sparging slowly should easily get you 85%...if you want it.

 

[Aleman]

To get back to my original question I bet you can't beat the 82% extraction efficiency of a Braumeister

I have in the past achieved 93-95% efficiency and it is possible to hit 103% under certain circumstances.

I'm not arguing the fact that the results are not the same, but the use of terminology that is not correct. You don't need HERMS/RIMS/RevRIMS in order to sparge . . . Indeed apart from a couple of specific examples you must sparge with HERMS/RIMS

 

[IPA]

Quote: it is possible to hit 103% under certain circumstances.

Come on! If anyone can get 103% then not only would they have solved the worlds energy problems they would have perpetual motion. By the way this morning I have not only been contributing to this discussion I have brewed 50 litres of Brakspear Bitter. Last years total was 900 litres of various beers and lagers

 

[Vossy1]

Come on! If anyone can get 103% then not only would they have solved the worlds energy problems they would have perpetual motion.

T'is true apparently, so says my CBA mag :hmm:

 

[IPA]

Slightly off topic. A french plumber tried to tell me that condensing boilers are 105% efficient as apposed to 78% for a conventional one. When I said that means your oil tank fills its self up when you fire up your boiler he looked rather blankly at me. Incidently the British figures are 78% and 84% respectively. Strange world is it not. Which ever system you are all using good luck with your brewing.

 

[evanvine]

Oh yes we can see this topic. Fly sparging slowly should easily get you 85%...if you want it.

+1, my average is 85%!

 

[Vossy1]

When I said that means your oil tank fills its self up when you fire up your boiler he looked rather blankly at me.

:lol:

 

[EskiBrew]

Oh yes we can see this topic. Fly sparging slowly should easily get you 85%...if you want it.

+1, my average is 85%!

+2, if I get below 86% I wonder why :thumb:

 

[evanvine]

+2, if I get below 86% I wonder why

I kind of get the feeling that an efficient brewer should know where his inefficiences are.
Me, I don't give a damn!

 

[Vossy1]

:lol: :twisted: