Is HERMs worth the effort ?

[Springer]

Went out to the Brewery this morning and fired up the kit to do a 90 litre brew............. all was perfect last brew, but PID showed that another PT100 had gone **** up, with no spare in stock, how many have I replaced. :evil:
So went back to the old method, chucked it all in, after a minute on Brewsmith, (brillient software,) hit desired temp, put on lid and went off into workshop and did something useful, instead of just watching it :) . After 90 mins came back and it was still at same temp. :? Termal whatsit or poor temperature measuring. :lol: (Have you actually taken temps at all places in your mash tun? I have a big long probe and the results are quite variable, never mind a PID working to point one of a fraction of naff all :?
So why do I, (we) bother with HERMS :? Do we need it or just want it :?
If you have a good mash tun, where is the gain. :? Clear wort :? Can't remember my beer improving after I went fancy. :?
The commercial boys don't use the system and as I have said before it takes a long time with a big brew pumping at 2 litres per sec to correct a missed temperature, against adding a kettle of water and putting the lid on. Its nice to see temp out of HE at 66 degress but what is the true temp in the mash tun ?
Tell me, where I'm going wrong with my thinking. :? Cos I'm up for redoing my pipework, minus heat exchanger.
S

 

[PD]

are you looking for posts against Herms or for someone to reaffirm your choice....

I've never used a heat exchanger but the biggest worry/problem I have on the normal 3 vessel brewing is maintaining a good steady mashing temp, and I've longingly looked towards the Herms system to achieve that.
However I have never gone through with the change due to DIY knowledge,capability and the extra expense.
The point is...I manage, I get problems on brew days with temps but thats part of the fun. I havent a budget to keep under or a deadline to meet, I brew for me and for the pleasure.
Hermes seems good theres no doubt about it, but the things it solves can be solved in other ways ( kettle of top up water for instance ).
It yet again comes around to your preferences and how you want to brew.
Some folks like all the gadjet's others like the string and gaffer tape way.

Sorry your going to have to decide yourself which way you want to go...

Be prepared for many folks posting for and against and you'll still be left having to make your own mind up....

 

[oldjiver]

Its all about perfection and consistency. If you made a truly remarkable brew you would want to repeat it. You can only do that by having equipment that will give the same result every time. So HERMS should give the control needed as mash temp is crucial to the finished beer. My local micro brewer doesnt even put a lid on his mash tun as he says the bulk keeps the temperature up anyway.
If this hobby is your main interest in life of course you want the best, and all that shiny stuff is tempting.
Myself, I am mean and lazy, so I get enjoyment from using bits of bubble rap and polystyrene, and getting a surprise from every brew!!

 

[Daveg]

I've been looking into HERMs myself and there's no doubt a row of stainless pots all plumbed together with pumps and electrictrickery looks very cool and is an achievement and something to be very proud of but the biggest argument I can see is the ability to repeat a brew. What's un-repeatable about using a 3 tier gravity system with a converted cooler? Surely it's about experience and good note keeping. Hitting temps and gravities and good working practices. Saying that you would have the ability to do a step mash without too much bother if you needed to. So it's about having the ability to advance in your chosen hobby I suppose not really about repeatability or brewing better beer, just being able to use different brewing techniques if you fancied it, or am I missing something?

 

[Springer]

PID
all points noted, you seem to want one. :lol:
Dave,
Think you are saying if you want to play, get one.
Jiver,
Think you said it in the last part, as I did, the pro's don't bother with the process. :) HERMS doesn't give you consistancy or perfection, you get a stuck mash by pumping to fast and see what you think. :lol:

My point is, get a good mash tun, find the thermal mass of it, use the correct volume of water at the correct temperature, dough in and put the lid on and leave it, you have consistancy do you not, apart from a slight variation for ambient temperature
You still need to do this with HERMS, pumping at 2 litres a minute work out how long it takes to get a big brew, say 60- 90 litres for me, up in temp by 2 degress or so. ( one cycle of pumping wont do it cos if wort at raised temperature is put back into tun at wrong temperature :?
Anyone do stepped mashes, again work out how long it takes to change the temp, not look at the HERMS out and smile, thats not the tun temp. :?
Where are the pro HERMS boys, do you have anything to help.

 

[Vossy1]

The simple answer is that there are many ways to skin a cat and HERMS is just one of them. If you like to play have a HERMS if you dont....don't :grin:

The problem with your PT100, it doesn't sound right, are you sure they're broken. At the end of the day they're just 2 wires connected, there's very little to go wrong and certainly not easy to break, I've not broken one in 5 years and counting and I have 7 or 8 dotted around the system and 3 in fv's :hmm: ...surely you're not just unlucky :shock: :lol:

If you have variable temps in your mash you aren't stirring enough, and if you're not stirring enough how can a kettle of water adequately correct a missed temp :wha: I too have had the problem of varying temps, but look on it like a positive, I learned I was doing something wrong which I wouldn't have known about unless testing due to the HERMS.

The pros don't pee about with HERMS but they also do stuff we're told are big no no's like centrifugally separating wort from grain, in the old days using bellows to crush the runnings out of the grain etc etc etc, they also have control of all the variables, something we don't and a HERMS gives us the facility to take some of them out.

I share your frustration S but the problem isn't the system, it's you :lol: ...if you don't like it simply don't use it

 

[Springer]

Thanks for the reply V.
Don't know what the issue with my PT100s is. :? Maybe just poor quality :?
Not frustrated with HERMS, just think its over rated and much talked about, for no big win :)
When I was talking of the pros I was thinking micros, not the "big" boys, don't want any of that. :lol:
Think I will have a go without for my next brews, before getting rid.
Yesterday it just seemed ................more rural, agricultural, ............ I felt at home with myself, without displays flashing :lol:
Happy brewing all, more thought welcome. :)
S

 

[PD]

quote...
more rural, agricultural


ooh ar, yer right their master, very common we are in the sticks......

The bright lights of the City are not for me.......

 

[unclepumble]

PT100's Packing up, are they Hermetically sealed? if not and you have them in the mash liquid (not in a pocket) they are probably goosing due to water ingress.

The Big Boys dont herms because of the thermal mass, they do steam jacket the Tuns though and stir the mash constantly to ensure a Homogeneous temperature through the entire mash, a Herms works better for the smaller brewer due to lack of thermal mass, however they work better if all the piepwork is very well insulated and the tun is also very well insulated, they take a long time to work if there is a path of heat loss in the system.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Shane

 

[Belter]

this is a very interesting post as I was thinking of going down the Herms route.

 

[evanvine]

May I just post my pennyworth.
Recirc, HERMS or other, is a great aid to an easy sparge!

 

[prolix]

I haven't used my HERMs for a while, because can't be bothered. If I hit temp I just leave it , useful for when you miss temp either way, but so is a pint of cold or hot water.

When I use the HERMs I tend to sit and watch it, when not I get on with other things.

Not had any noticiable difference in beer quality either way.

 

[Dronfieldbrewer]

My 2 penneth.....

I think that if you hit temp in HLT and from experience, hit temp in mashtun then no need for HERMS. Its a case of knowing your brew gear and what it does

I personally know that if I get 80 degrees in HLT (after a quick stir, as the water under the elements is significantly cooler that that above), with 2.50 ratio with grist for 5%abv brew I will end up with a mash at 66 degrees, adjust from this if 4%abv brew required, or if slightly higher mash temp required.

I have insulated the mashtun bigstyle and it loses .01 of a degree over 90 min mash, but this is only achievable if the thing is really full. If smaller brew than 60 litres required then all sorts of fun transpires.

The conclusion I have with all this is that for smaller brew length then HERMS would be useful to help with heat losses however for brew length of say 10 gallons or more, its a bit of a waste of time.

 

[evanvine]

I initially built My HERMS for the hell of it, but have found it to be quite a useful tool.
From choice I only brew 5 gal lengths, so do not have the stability of RW's 10 gals.

 

[EskiBrew]

No one yet has mentioned how they give you the ability to do temperature stepped mashes to allow things like a protein rest (although arguably not required if using fully modified malts) or a Glucan rest if mashing with Wheat or Oats. I think HERMS or RIMS is easier in that respect than is decoction mashing although I guess once proficient at decoction mashing that point would be debatable.

 

[Springer]

PT100's Packing up, are they Hermetically sealed? if not and you have them in the mash liquid (not in a pocket) they are probably goosing due to water ingress.

The Big Boys dont herms because of the thermal mass, they do steam jacket the Tuns though and stir the mash constantly to ensure a Homogeneous temperature through the entire mash, a Herms works better for the smaller brewer due to lack of thermal mass, however they work better if all the piepwork is very well insulated and the tun is also very well insulated, they take a long time to work if there is a path of heat loss in the system.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Shane

So my problem is that my PT100 are in the flow from the HE, didn't realise that the ends were not sealed, so need a pocket. :)

Mine has Vossy's hose but I sit watching it with the lid off, thinking that I can do this because it is replacing the heat loss

this is a very interesting post as I was thinking of going down the Herms route.

Don't let me put you off, or anyone else, its a free world, as V said there arelots of ways of skinning the cat, why would you want to do that V :? :lol:

May I just post my pennyworth.
Recirc, HERMS or other, is a great aid to an easy sparge!

True

I haven't used my HERMs for a while, because can't be bothered. If I hit temp I just leave it , useful for when you miss temp either way, but so is a pint of cold or hot water.

When I use the HERMs I tend to sit and watch it, when not I get on with other things.


Not had any noticiable difference in beer quality either way.

Thats where I am.

My 2 penneth.....
Thats where I am
I think that if you hit temp in HLT and from experience, hit temp in mashtun then no need for HERMS. Its a case of knowing your brew gear and what it does

I personally know that if I get 80 degrees in HLT (after a quick stir, as the water under the elements is significantly cooler that that above), with 2.50 ratio with grist for 5%abv brew I will end up with a mash at 66 degrees, adjust from this if 4%abv brew required, or if slightly higher mash temp required.

I have insulated the mashtun bigstyle and it loses .01 of a degree over 90 min mash, but this is only achievable if the thing is really full. If smaller brew than 60 litres required then all sorts of fun transpires.

The conclusion I have with all this is that for smaller brew length then HERMS would be useful to help with heat losses however for brew length of say 10 gallons or more, its a bit of a waste of time.

Yes, Prolix you and me then. :lol: Spot on Rob.
There is tools on Beersmith to give you Mash infusion and Mash adjustment details allowing for your mash tun.

I initially built My HERMS for the hell of it, but have found it to be quite a useful tool.
From choice I only brew 5 gal lengths, so do not have the stability of RW's 10 gals.

Thats why I built mine, does have use in sparging if you feel you want to. :)

No one yet has mentioned how they give you the ability to do temperature stepped mashes to allow things like a protein rest (although arguably not required if using fully modified malts) or a Glucan rest if mashing with Wheat or Oats. I think HERMS or RIMS is easier in that respect than is decoction mashing although I guess once proficient at decoction mashing that point would be debatable.

Do many people do this ? Whats wrong with a kettle of water as has been mentioned ?

I think I have gained alot from this thread, hope others have

My conclusion is
For say a 50 litre brew, 10kg of grain, 25 litres of water plus 8 below false bottom pumping at 2 litres a min,
Rest time to settle 10 mins
pumping liquid 17mins
extra pumping to heat grain and tun 10 say?
So thats 40mins or so, they say that nearly all the conversion is done in 60 mins, so I think it will be more accurate and consistant to boil some water ,add it and put the lid on, saw one minute. :lol:
For a small brew get a good mash tun, job solved, I did 60 plus brews with no problem.

Happy brewing everyone, thanks for all the replies and the thread is still running for further input.
S
P.S. Now something that is really worthwhile and does help consistancy is an STC1000, marvellous. :thumb:

 

[prolix]

No one yet has mentioned how they give you the ability to do temperature stepped mashes to allow things like a protein rest (although arguably not required if using fully modified malts) or a Glucan rest if mashing with Wheat or Oats. I think HERMS or RIMS is easier in that respect than is decoction mashing although I guess once proficient at decoction mashing that point would be debatable.

I agree, it's there if I need it, when I don't it isn't.

Having the choice is great

 

[Oggys Bar]

Springer, where are you getting your PT100s from. I've never had any problem with my 2 in four years of use!...Buggah..I bet I regret that statement... :pray: .As regard HERMs, been using it for 4 years now and wouldn't do it any other way...

Why... because I made it work, it works great for me and I can be a bit blase about strike temp and recover it reasonably quickly and...I have forgotten how to do it any other way.

Is it better than a plastic bucket wrapped in a quilt...emphatically....NO
Does it produce better beer...I doubt it
Does it produce a more consistent temperature...Possibly..but does it matter.
Clearer wort...I claim it does..but in reality use of a counterflow cooler negates any advantage.
It certainly would be advantageous if you wanted to do fancy changes of temperature brewing...but I dont.

To be honest I just like the sound of the pumps, the glow of the LED lights, and the satisfaction that my own designed and built air driven brewery produces really good beer and looks a bit more sophisticated than a brewtub...

I think its one of those slap em on the table and get the ruler out things.

 

[craigite]

I initially built My HERMS for the hell of it, but have found it to be quite a useful tool.
From choice I only brew 5 gal lengths, so do not have the stability of RW's 10 gals.

Snap. :thumb:

 

[Swift Pint]

I think if your primary reason for using HERMs is to keep the temp constant, then it would be cheaper and easier to invest in insulation for the mash tun.

In terms of different temperatures at different points in the mash, how long and how often is everyone stirring for??