Im all a quiver with excitement - BZ gen 4 delivered

[jambop]

If its recirculating why is it dead?

It is dead in terms of calculating strike water volume and temperature since it plays no part in the initial doughing in. If you do not take it into account the strike liquor temp will be too low for the volume of liquor inside the malt basket. I do not know of anybody who mashes in with the recirc running and as everyone knows these systems cannot operate without enough excess liquor for recirculation if they did not need it there would be zero space below the grain basket.
For the record my thinking about the Bz 35L is that, although I have found it to function quite well, it is a huge set of compromises to get the maximum from volume of vessel they had... thus the boil extender comes into play. That is not to say I do not think that the boil extender is not a good idea because making a 25L batch with a heavy beer is impossible as standard I struggled with 4.8kg .

 

[foxy]

So, if you are raising the mash tun you are increasing the "Dead space" under the mash tun. So you will still have to account for that in the dough in calculations. It doesn't matter what the volume of liquor is under the mash tun, the mash tun will only drain at the same speed. Can't for the life of me understand why KegLand reduced the volume under the mash tun by over 60%?
As by lifting the mash tun you are making a more fluid mash. Why not add more liquor for a more fluid mash and keep more grain in suspension allowing the grain bed to drain more freely? This will increase the efficiency of the mash to boot.

 

[peterpiper]

I don't do much when mashing mainly because i don't understand all the jargon (maybe a good thing), i set my mash temp at 68c mash in leave it 10 minutes give it stir top plate on and pump on about a 1/4 turn. on the 1/2 hour mark i stick a temp probe into the middle of the mash always 65c then i test the pump out flow always 63c, i consistantly hit my volumes and abv. all i can say is i have a very relaxed attitude when brewing and just let it do it's thing, i clean as i go all i have left to clean is the kettle and touch wood the beer is good

Is that on a gen4 without a HED?

I went for a HED, after seeing it was meant to prevent possible issue from majority of wort flow flowing near centre, so bypassing sensor and much of the heat plate.
Is having mash set 68°C, but recirc 63°C, maybe due to that issue?

With HED, I find pump flow/ recirc wort temperature is similar to, or slightly above, that from the internal sensor temperature (not my mash temp, which goes on my BT probe temperature).

 

[Rodcx500z]

No 35L gen 3

 

[peterpiper]

It is dead in terms of calculating strike water volume and temperature since it plays no part in the initial doughing in. If you do not take it into account the strike liquor temp will be too low for the volume of liquor inside the malt basket. I do not know of anybody who mashes in with the recirc running and as everyone knows these systems cannot operate without enough excess liquor for recirculation if they did not need it there would be zero space below the grain basket.

While adding grain, I now always outer ricirc at max rate, with recirc pipe poked down one lift hole.
This should help keep the flour that drops through, in circulation. Flour otherwise tends to settle out, forming a solid layer on base, which can later scorch. Particularly when using a high proportion of huskless grains (often 55% wheat malt).

This outer recirc is continued for the 15min grain bed rest, before switching to grain bed recirc, when circulating flour gets caught by the grain bed filter.
Outer recirc, also keeps the malt pipe surrounded by liquid at the correct mash temp. Then the grain temp stays very nearly correct, as heat loss, can now only be from it's top surface.

 

[jambop]

So, if you are raising the mash tun you are increasing the "Dead space" under the mash tun. So you will still have to account for that in the dough in calculations. It doesn't matter what the volume of liquor is under the mash tun, the mash tun will only drain at the same speed. Can't for the life of me understand why KegLand reduced the volume under the mash tun by over 60%?
As by lifting the mash tun you are making a more fluid mash. Why not add more liquor for a more fluid mash and keep more grain in suspension allowing the grain bed to drain more freely? This will increase the efficiency of the mash to boot.

I agree to en extent BUT having a larger volume below the grain basket allows you to tune the flow rate to the max without the fear of it running dry befor you get there. Also I reckon there is a bit more flow that could be gained by milling my malt grains even less thus gatting a higher flow rate without compromising efficiency but improving the flow of wort over the temp sensor. This in my opinion is the goal.
The reason they reduced the dead space was to increase the mashing capability of the system. The have gone about getting the max from a set volume. All just my opinion

 

[Frisp]

While adding grain, I now always outer ricirc at max rate, with recirc pipe poked down one lift hole.
This should help keep the flour that drops through, in circulation. Flour otherwise tends to settle out, forming a solid layer on base, which can later scorch. Particularly when using a high proportion of huskless grains (often 55% wheat malt).

This outer recirc is continued for the 15min grain bed rest, before switching to grain bed recirc, when circulating flour gets caught by the grain bed filter.
Outer recirc, also keeps the malt pipe surrounded by liquid at the correct mash temp. Then the grain temp stays very nearly correct, as heat loss, can now only be from it's top surface.

Just to clarify Im reading this right.
Are you saying jam the silicone tube into one of the lifting holes and run / recirculate liquor down between the malt pipe and the outer skin during mash in
if you are I can see a lot of sense in that

 

[jambop]

While adding grain, I now always outer ricirc at max rate, with recirc pipe poked down one lift hole.
This should help keep the flour that drops through, in circulation. Flour otherwise tends to settle out, forming a solid layer on base, which can later scorch. Particularly when using a high proportion of huskless grains (often 55% wheat malt).

This outer recirc is continued for the 15min grain bed rest, before switching to grain bed recirc, when circulating flour gets caught by the grain bed filter.
Outer recirc, also keeps the malt pipe surrounded by liquid at the correct mash temp. Then the grain temp stays very nearly correct, as heat loss, can now only be from it's top surface.

That is an interesting method. What I have noticed, only used the system twice, is in comparison to my Grainfather S40 I have next to no flour resedues after I have mashed, boiled and transfered the wort. No one single grain nor husk have I seen below the grain basket, it is remarkable! Now I do not crush my malt fine and in fact I am going to try moving from 1.4mm to 1.6mm for the next brew I do to see how this effects wort recirculation rate and if efficiency is effected. I got 85% mash efficiency last brew which for me is a good figure. Timothy Taylors say they only just crack the husks of their malt grains... they know something about brewing so there is a reason for that. I think it is reduced extraction of tannins and improved sparging.

 

[Twostage]

You must know these systems perform at their best with a high flow rate.

Must I ?

I would thought they perform at their best at the optimal flow rate. Fast enough so that the temperature can be maintained and slow enough so that the enzymes can do their thing and the grain bed doesn't compact.

Most of the videos I've seen the flow rate is throttled either using the tap or the control panel, usually 50% which is what I do.

 

[jambop]

Must I ?

I would thought they perform at their best at the optimal flow rate. Fast enough so that the temperature can be maintained and slow enough so that the enzymes can do their thing and the grain bed doesn't compact.

Most of the videos I've seen the flow rate is throttled either using the tap or the control panel, usually 50% which is what I do.

Well the enzymes are homogenous in the wort so the rate of the flow is of no great consiquence in terms of enzymic activity but the sugar contained within the husks of the ruptured grains are better eluted from there with a speedy flow. The quicker the wort entering the top of the column reaches the bottom the less time there is for the wort to cool and so the mash temperature will be closer to isothermal. Personally I would pump the wort as fast as I possibly could to maintain even heat throughout the mash. Each to their own I suppose but slowing the flow rate does nothing for enzyme activity. The grain bed compaction is definitely something one wants to minimise. To that end I would propose a very course milling and the use of a wort spreader. Grain bed compaction is a function to fine a grain crush and using the top plate in my opinion.

 

[Twostage]

Well the enzymes are homogenous in the wort so the rate of the flow is of no great consiquence in terms of enzymic activity but the sugar contained within the husks of the ruptured grains are better eluted from there with a speedy flow. The quicker the wort entering the top of the column reaches the bottom the less time there is for the wort to cool and so the mash temperature will be closer to isothermal. Personally I would pump the wort as fast as I possibly could to maintain even heat throughout the mash. Each to their own I suppose but slowing the flow rate does nothing for enzyme activity. The grain bed compaction is definitely something one wants to minimise. To that end I would propose a very course milling and the use of a wort spreader. Grain bed compaction is a function to fine a grain crush and using the top plate in my opinion.

The laugh is before I got the BZ I was doing BIAB where the pump controls ranged from 'not available' to 'why are you still looking ?' .

 

[foxy]

The laugh is before I got the BZ I was doing BIAB where the pump controls ranged from 'not available' to 'why are you still looking ?' .

I have gone back to the finer crush, not a lot just enough to keep the husks intact.
Kee Doery in one of his videos, I think it was addressing the overshoot or could have been the heat deflection plate. But he did state that the tap must be fully open and the pump on 100% power. Now when I read about the dead space in the Brewzilla G4 being 2.5 litres or thereabouts I presumed it was referring to "Dead Space" not recoverable dead space.
I can't see this being possible to have a tap fully open with adjuncts in the grist and only 2.5 litres of recoverable dead space.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

The projected maths seem optimistic to me, if the pump is 11 litres per minute then flow through the mash bed needs to be one litre about every 5 and a bit seconds. That could be optimistic with a thick mash.
2.5 litres not much buffering of volume.

 

[foxy]

The projected maths seem optimistic to me, if the pump is 11 litres per minute then flow through the mash bed needs to be one litre about every 5 and a bit seconds. That could be optimistic with a thick mash.
2.5 litres not much buffering of volume.

I really can't think of any feasible reason for reducing the space under the grain basket???? The Brewzilla is the narrowest AIO on the market compacting the grain even more. They could have taken the diameter to at least 450mm and not immersed the grain basket so much. I think they are still using the sizes of the original Robobrew or close to it.

 

[jambop]

I really can't think of any feasible reason for reducing the space under the grain basket???? The Brewzilla is the narrowest AIO on the market compacting the grain even more. They could have taken the diameter to at least 450mm and not immersed the grain basket so much. I think they are still using the sizes of the original Robobrew or close to it.

As I said to me it is like they had a boiler of a certain dimension and needed it to do certain volumes to make it competative in the market place . The only way they could do that was make the volume below the grain basket smaller but that is just an opinion. Now to be fair I have used mine twice and have had very good efficiencies calculated at 83% and 85% the Brewhouse is great because you can transfer nearly all the wort. In fact you can transfer the lot by tipping the last 500ml into the fermenter it is that clean. At the moment I cannot because I am injured and have to put the fermenter into the fridge first and pump the wort into it. Am I really complaining? Not really but like every scientist I think it could work just a little better on temperature stability buy pumping the wort faster... thats it really I also think using a wort spreader is a good idea and leave the toplate off for mashing but use it and the wort spreader for sparging.

 

[foxy]

As I said to me it is like they had a boiler of a certain dimension and needed it to do certain volumes to make it competative in the market place . The only way they could do that was make the volume below the grain basket smaller but that is just an opinion. Now to be fair I have used mine twice and have had very good efficiencies calculated at 83% and 85% the Brewhouse is great because you can transfer nearly all the wort. In fact you can transfer the lot by tipping the last 500ml into the fermenter it is that clean. At the moment I cannot because I am injured and have to put the fermenter into the fridge first and pump the wort into it. Am I really complaining? Not really but like every scientist I think it could work just a little better on temperature stability buy pumping the wort faster... thats it really I also think using a wort spreader is a good idea and leave the toplate off for mashing but use it and the wort spreader for sparging.

I am not a scientist, but seeing as there was barely one negative comment on the Brewzilla 3-1-1 and numerous on the G4 I think that the 3-1-1 model wins. Kegland likes to quote, 'The critical minds of their engineers' I know the staff at Kegland, there is not one engineer amongst them! Gash Slug sums it up nicely without getting himself in the tish. If you have the 3-1-1 Brewzilla don't rush out and buy the G4. If Kegland is still in business after their current court case then the next G5 will revert back to a more forgiving recoverable dead space.

 

[Consett26]

If Kegland is still in business after their current court case then the next G5 will revert back to a more forgiving recoverable dead space.

What court case?

 

[foxy]

What court case?

Usual shenanigans from Keg Land. A 50% shareholder woke up one morning and found his 50% share in the company had been reduced to 10%. While two other shareholders had their shareholding increase by 20% each!
So the shareholder who had once owned 50% and put up $500,000 to start Keg Land was offered $100,000 restitution. The preliminary hearing has been heard and the judge decided there is a case to answer. The case is booked to start on 22nd May.
Booked a seat and got me some popcorn.

 

[Frisp]

Usual shenanigans from Keg Land. A 50% shareholder woke up one morning and found his 50% share in the company had been reduced to 10%. While two other shareholders had their shareholding increase by 20% each!
So the shareholder who had once owned 50% and put up $500,000 to start Keg Land was offered $100,000 restitution. The preliminary hearing has been heard and the judge decided there is a case to answer. The case is booked to start on 22nd May.
Booked a seat and got me some popcorn.

think Ill buy up some spares for my Kegland products

 

[Consett26]

Usual shenanigans from Keg Land. A 50% shareholder woke up one morning and found his 50% share in the company had been reduced to 10%. While two other shareholders had their shareholding increase by 20% each!
So the shareholder who had once owned 50% and put up $500,000 to start Keg Land was offered $100,000 restitution. The preliminary hearing has been heard and the judge decided there is a case to answer. The case is booked to start on 22nd May.
Booked a seat and got me some popcorn.

Wow! Thanks. It's difficult to see how, if he had a 50% shareholding, that could legally be done behind his back (because, without his shares, it's impossible to get 50% + 1).

Will you be providing updates here?