Hydrogen Vs BEV cars.

[Alastair70]

Not if they move as fast as Musky boy

He repackaged an existing technology, hydrogen isn’t coming to the mass car market any time soon, or if it does it’ll be a waste.
There are great applications for hydrogen; eg. blue H powering carbon capture and fuelling local public transport but they’re, ahem, 5-10 years away.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Smaller than a battery pack and less damaging to the planet

 

[Alastair70]

Smaller than a battery pack and less damaging to the planet

I beg to differ; how do you make, package and transport the hydrogen? This is like when the ICE people overlook the carbon footprint of extracting, refining and transporting fossil fuels and only focusing on tailpipe emissions.

 

[Alastair70]

In simple terms, almost all hydrogen currently available is grey hydrogen - basically, another refined fossil fuel that is dependant on other fossil fuels for the refining process.

5% of currently available hydrogen is blue hydrogen - a refined fossil fuel but with carbon capture factored in.

We do not have a reliable source of green hydrogen at present - hydrogen produced by the hydrolysis of water using renewable energy, and hence, not dependant on fossil fuels that have to be extracted, refined and transported.

You cannot be a credible proponent of Hydrogen fuel if you don’t understand these distinctions and can factor them into your arguments.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Larse - Not that small

The top one is for cars the other is for other applications as mentioned in the video i posted -

"These cartridges are not just for cars Toyota envisages them powering everything from your home to outdoor ventures"

 

[JockyBrewer]

In simple terms, almost all hydrogen currently available is grey hydrogen - basically, another refined fossil fuel that is dependant on other fossil fuels for the refining process.

5% of currently available hydrogen is blue hydrogen - a refined fossil fuel but with carbon capture factored in.

We do not have a reliable source of green hydrogen at present - hydrogen produced by the hydrolysis of water using renewable energy, and hence, not dependant on fossil fuels that have to be extracted, refined and transported.

You cannot be a credible proponent of Hydrogen fuel if you don’t understand these distinctions and can factor them into your arguments.

But that's not to say that you couldn't produce green/blue hydrogen if required, similar to saying that many EVs are ultimately powered by fossil fuel power stations?

 

[Alastair70]

many EVs are ultimately powered by fossil fuel power stations?

Not quite. Around 33% of the UK electric is still fossil fuel based, 13% nuclear and the remainder is renewable. The renewable percentage has been trending up significantly over the last decade.

Also, a lot of EV owners like me farm their own electrons. My weekly mileage means my EV runs almost entirely on ‘shop bought’ electrons, but if I did a more typical 20-30 miles per day my solar panels would produce more electricity than I use (except on brew days!).

Green hydrogen doesn’t have an economically sustainable application yet. Blue hydrogen could have, but it involves carbon capture catching up, Given that we’re past the tipping point where the worlds population of trees etc. can no longer keep up with the CO2 produced globally, improving carbon capture technology is now crucial.

 

[Nicks90]

I am all for alternative energy sources for vehicles, passenger, haulage, freight, rail, ships - but whatever we develop and use HAS to use green energy to produce. Or with the relative poor efficiency of producing and using these alternative fuels, you may as well just stick to petrol/diesel

So when we finally have an excess of renewables and being in a position to produce lots of excess during the day and store it for use overnight, and STILL have an excess - then and only then will I entertain ammonia or hydrogen as a viable (albeit horribly in efficient) alternative
We are a long way off being in that position,so until then the most efficient means of transport available is ev. End of.

 

[Larse]

The top one is for cars the other is for other applications as mentioned in the video i posted -

"These cartridges are not just for cars Toyota envisages them powering everything from your home to outdoor ventures"



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In that case, can't see them providing much fuel. Is there any data as to how far they can take you? I did look, but couldn't find anything.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

In that case, can't see them providing much fuel.

On what do you base that assumption?

 

[Larse]

On what do you base that assumption?

Size. How many litres of hydrogen does that thing hold? 5?

 

[JockyBrewer]

Not quite. Around 33% of the UK electric is still fossil fuel based, 13% nuclear and the remainder is renewable. The renewable percentage has been trending up significantly over the last decade.

Am I missing something here, or couldn’t that same electricity production be used to create hydrogen?

 

[JockyBrewer]

Size. How many litres of hydrogen does that thing hold? 5?

What pressure are you measuring volume?

 

[Larse]

What pressure are you measuring volume?

It was a question. I have no idea.

 

[Larse]

So I've looked this up. Hydrogen cars will have a number of tanks (2 or 3) which usually hold about 2Kg of hydrogen each. The size of these tanks is variable but the average is about 35cm in diameter and 70cm in length. One Kg of hydrogen will give you about 60 miles range.

The pressure in those tanks is up to 700 bar. 10,000psi.

Based on those sizes, Toyota's cartridge couldn't hold more than a fraction of a kilo.

 

[Larse]

When will the nuclear power cell off Terminator be invented?

I think that's been dropped in favour of Iron Man's arc reactor.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Size. How many litres of hydrogen does that thing hold? 5?

I haven't a clue i have only seen the info we have all seen in this thread, i am sure Toyota wouldn't go to the trouble of making these cartridges and the hydrogen power plant if they were not fit for purpose.

 

[MashBag]

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Hang on... But those two look a completely different size.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The pressure in those tanks is up to 700 bar. 10,000psi.
Based on those sizes, Toyota's cartridge couldn't hold more than a fraction of a kilo.

There is no info on the cartridge capacity but the quote below was left in a video on the subject.

The hydrogen is not being burnt in a Hydrogen internal combustion engine its being used to charge the battery that powers the electric motor.

This isn't meant for an engine, but a fuel stack. More efficient than burning it in an engine, but no idea how much more runtime it would give.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Hang on... But those two look a completely different size.

That was my thinking, unless the rendering of the vehicle is actually a bus, not a car

Smell for car big for other uses -

The answer was in the video i posted in #26.